Hunting House » Hunting Season » Pope and Young Club Contest was world record
Pope and Young Club Contest was world record
Question:
>>>> >Let’s face it. The man killed the deer with a bow. >>> >Woody Williams >>> No, Woody, the man killed the deer with a high letoff compound bow. >It is plain and simple. 1) Rampola knew the deer he was after was world >class. 2) He knew that his bow was 80% letoff. 3) He knew that P&Y rules >would keep him out of their book for using his bow of choice. >Besides the real money for him is with B&C. Don’t get me wrong, I am an >avid archer but P&Y is like the minor league when compared to B&C.
Maybe one could better compare the two record clubs with oh, lets say the sport of Power Lifting. You have the ADFPA (analogous to Pope and Young) that allows competition only by lifters that are drug-free, and the other association that allows the use of Steroids and other enhancing drugs (analogous to Boone and Crocket). Don’t get me wrong, I am an avid bow hunter and an avid gun hunter as well. I think as long as the B&C accepts any deer taken or found, and has minimum scores much higher then the other clubs, we have a club that celebrates those awesome deer rather then the hunter. Maybe the P&Y club is a celebration of "fair chase" however that might be defined, and I think that the P&Y club does try to define what is fair chase. If there is to be a line drawn, where else would we draw it? Lazer sights, electronic trail monitoring, closed circuit TV, hunting w/ dogs, baiting, etc. are all quesionable fair chase methods – some are legal, and some are not. Those who don’t care about the books or the requirements will hunt with what ever type of weapon they want. I agree with some, like Woody though, that we should be careful not to be combative with other hunting enthusiasts on some of these issues, but civil discussion is healthy to the sport and the results are benificial to the outword appearance of the sport to those who don’t participate. Good hunting to all of you no matter where you come down on this issue. Merry Christmas to all! Rod Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at: http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/
Response:
(snip to much bull) >I understand that. I never said otherwise. Do we judge the animal taken by >the performance of the bow – high or otherwise? Do we say,"Oh well what do >you expect he was shooting a high performance bow. That bow got him the >deer. He didn’t have to hunt it". Ken, we both hunt the big boys and you >and I know that Mitch still had to put himself in the position to kill that >buck.
If we change the rules on the bow why not guns. I shot a deer with a 30-06 dose that make it less of a deer than one shot with a 22-250. Come on people he shot it end of subject. He didn’t jump out of the tree and do it with his hands but he used a weapon. let it go. Where is Mitch in all this can we hear his opinion? chris Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at: http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Hmmm? Are you aware that some P & Y people think that there should be >two books. One for compound shooters and one for stickbow shooters? >> If they >> do not support that I am still going to use whats legal and really could >> care less about being in >> the P&Y book. >> Lou Green New Jersey >I really don’t give a rat’s patooie about entering their "contest" >either.Mitch will be a millionaire by just having the B & C world champ. >This just threw an egg in P & Y’s face. >Let’s face it. The man killed the deer with a bow. >Woody Williams > No, Woody, the man killed the deer with a high letoff compound bow.
Hi Ken, But it is still a BOW by every criteria but P & Y, isn’t it? Does P & Y set the standards/rules for all bowhunters or just the ones that want to enter their contest? In Indiana or NY should we have to abide by our states regulations concerning what constitutes a bow or should we all defer to the P & Y’s almighty rules? > That is > not anywhere near any stick bow that I know of in terms of performance.
I understand that. I never said otherwise. Do we judge the animal taken by the performance of the bow – high or otherwise? Do we say,"Oh well what do you expect he was shooting a high performance bow. That bow got him the deer. He didn’t have to hunt it". Ken, we both hunt the big boys and you and I know that Mitch still had to put himself in the position to kill that buck. And as I understand Mitch shot the deer at approximately 15 yards which as you and I know is well within the killing distance of any hunting bow made. I’m sure that Mitch knew that when he went afield with the greater than 65 % letoff that anything that he killed, world record or not, would not be admissable in P & Y’s contest. I’m not advocating that the P & Y club accept the deer at all. Thye shouldn’t and I would be dissapoineted if they did. If you want to enter an animal in their contest then you MUST abide by their rules. I’m just saying that it is a dumb rule – in my opinion. The same as the no electronics.My little stick on clock on my upper limb disqualifies me, as if I wanted to enter anything. I > agree that the P & Y people are right…there should be two books, one for > stick bow shooters and one for compound shooters.
Then we should also have different books for different classes just like they do for archery tournaments. If we really want to even out these dreaded "high performance" issues then we need a class system of some sort. It’s not fair that the non-sight stickbow shooters have to compete with the sighted stickbow shooters or the hard cams against the soft cams and on and on and on and on. You know that I’m just kidding about the class books but you get my point. If it shoots an arrow it’s a bow.. (Please everybody, don’t come back with the crossbow stuff. Crossbows shoot bolts, not arrows) Besides the P & Y club and the B & C Club are supposed to be honoring the animal and not the hunter or more importantly his equipment. Woody Williams If you’re too busy to hunt, you’re too busy Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at: http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/
Response:
>> >Let’s face it. The man killed the deer with a bow. > >Woody Williams > No, Woody, the man killed the deer with a high letoff compound bow.
So let me get this straight, Am i a better hunter than my buddy? He shot his elk with a scoped 300 win mag. I used a 270 with iron sights… Both elk were shot from 100 yards. Both died. I am totally opposed to someone trying to force new rules on Pope and Young. They can do whatever they want. If I don’t agree with them, I don’t enter their contest. Its all about meat for the freezer and occassionally, a good rack for the wall to me. Sincerely, JAH "Will Hunt for food" Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at: http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/
Response:
>>> >Let’s face it. The man killed the deer with a bow. >> >Woody Williams >> No, Woody, the man killed the deer with a high letoff compound bow.
It is plain and simple. 1) Rampola knew the deer he was after was world class. 2) He knew that his bow was 80% letoff. 3) He knew that P&Y rules would keep him out of their book for using his bow of choice. Besides the real money for him is with B&C. Don’t get me wrong, I am an avid archer but P&Y is like the minor league when compared to B&C. . Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at: http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Hi Ken, >But it is still a BOW by every criteria but P & Y, isn’t it? Does >P & Y set the standards/rules for all bowhunters or just the ones that want >to enter their contest? In Indiana or NY should we have to abide by our >states regulations concerning what constitutes a bow or should we all defer >to the P & Y’s almighty rules? > Hi Woody, > The state’s job is to regulate what goes on in the field in a given > hunting season, P& Y’s interest is to catagorize hunting levels of difficulty > based on the tool used. Different skill’s and skill levels are involved > in each catagory, not more or less difficult, but different. Shooting a > stick bow efficiently is a much different task than shooting a compound > sighted or not. Even a unsighted compound gives a competant instinctive > shooter a enormous advantage over a traditional ( modern ) stickbow. I > just think that P&Y should recognize that and I agree that the books should > reflect that. I don’t really care how the books reflect this….maybe they > could just note the different class bow used?
I agree with everything you said - except – The part about P & Y recognizing the catagories of bows. It is our own personal choice as to which bow we want to pick up and use. That is the ultimate beauty of bowhunting in that we do have a choice. Mitch picked a choice that was outside what P & Y recognized and knew full well what he was doing. Maybe he just thumbed his nose at P & Y. Then maybe IF he knew he was going to kill a world record he would have used a stickbow or a >65 % let-off compound. Again, you don’t have to be the world’s best shot with any bow to arrow a deer at 15 yards. You and I have both killed deer with compounds and stick bows. Would I feel I was a better hunter/shooter or would want P & Y to recognize me and my animals as "special" because I killed it at 15 yards with a stickbow? I don’t think so. No, I think dividing hunters (bow or gun) into groups and then sub-groups is very, very detrimental to hunting. <snip> >And as I understand Mitch shot the deer at approximately 15 yards which as >you and I know is well within the killing distance of any hunting bow made. > I agree with this as well. But Mitch Rampola is a unusual hunter, and I > think HE probably could have killed that deer with anything he went afield > with. For him, the issue was getting within 15yards of that buck in the > first place. 99 percent could not do that, even if they knew that that > buck was there in the first place.
I agree. So where does the type of bow used come into play? Even if we extended that yardage out to 25 yards, we would still be within the range of where most deer are shot by stickbows or compounds. > But the perpose of the books is to level the field,
No, the "supposed" purpose of the books is to honor the animals that are taken.B & C will honor bow killed animals in their books. That’s one reason why P & Y will always take a back seat to B & C. >thats why there are > "classes" in sports and shooting and there should be in P&Y that recognize > different levels of skills or just different skills period. I have killed > a lot of deer with sighted compounds, and unsighted stick bows. I have > even spent a fair amount of time playing around with unsighted compounds > shot instinctively. My conclusion is that they are not the same animal, > and the biggest difference is between a high performance compound and the > best recurve, sighted or not. This difference is huge, and is the reason > that very few people shoot both.
That’s correct. Most people shoot compounds. Period. Of course there are differences in every aspect of archery from long bows right on through to hatchet cams. But again, if the animals shot are 99% of the time within the 20 to 25 yards when killed it makes little difference if it is killed with a stickbow or a compound. Ken, I wish you and yours a very Merry Christmas. Maybe, if you’ve been good, Santa will bring you one of those new Golden Eagle Splitfire 2 Naturals. <G> Woody Williams If you’re too busy to hunt, you’re too busy Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at: http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/
Response:
>Hi Ken, >But it is still a BOW by every criteria but P & Y, isn’t it? Does >P & Y set the standards/rules for all bowhunters or just the ones that want >to enter their contest? In Indiana or NY should we have to abide by our >states regulations concerning what constitutes a bow or should we all defer >to the P & Y’s almighty rules?
Hi Woody, The state’s job is to regulate what goes on in the field in a given hunting season, P& Y’s interest is to catagorize hunting levels of difficulty based on the tool used. Different skill’s and skill levels are involved in each catagory, not more or less difficult, but different. Shooting a stick bow efficiently is a much different task than shooting a compound sighted or not. Even a unsighted compound gives a competant instinctive shooter a enormous advantage over a traditional ( modern ) stickbow. I just think that P&Y should recognize that and I agree that the books should reflect that. I don’t really care how the books reflect this….maybe they could just note the different class bow used? >I understand that. I never said otherwise. Do we judge the animal taken by >the performance of the bow – high or otherwise? Do we say,"Oh well what do >you expect he was shooting a high performance bow. That bow got him the >deer. He didn’t have to hunt it". Ken, we both hunt the big boys and you >and I know that Mitch still had to put himself in the position to kill that >buck.
I agree with this. >And as I understand Mitch shot the deer at approximately 15 yards which as >you and I know is well within the killing distance of any hunting bow made.
I agree with this as well. But Mitch Rampola is a unusual hunter, and I think HE probably could have killed that deer with anything he went afield with. For him, the issue was getting within 15yards of that buck in the first place. 99 percent could not do that, even if they knew that that buck was there in the first place. But the perpose of the books is to level the field, thats why there are "classes" in sports and shooting and there should be in P&Y that recognize different levels of skills or just different skills period. I have killed a lot of deer with sighted compounds, and unsighted stick bows. I have even spent a fair amount of time playing around with unsighted compounds shot instinctively. My conclusion is that they are not the same animal, and the biggest difference is between a high performance compound and the best recurve, sighted or not. This difference is huge, and is the reason that very few people shoot both. best regards, Ken Karcich – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->I’m sure that Mitch knew that when he went afield with the greater than 65 >% letoff that anything that he killed, world record or not, would not be >admissable in P & Y’s contest. I’m not advocating that the P & Y club >accept the deer at all. Thye shouldn’t and I would be dissapoineted if they >did. If you want to enter an animal in their contest then you MUST abide by >their rules. I’m just saying that it is a dumb rule – in my opinion. The >same as the no electronics.My little stick on clock on my upper limb >disqualifies me, as if I wanted to enter anything. >I > agree that the P & Y people are right…there should be two books, one for > stick bow shooters and one for compound shooters. >Then we should also have different books for different classes just like >they do for archery tournaments. If we really want to even out these >dreaded "high performance" issues then we need a class system of some sort. >It’s not fair that the non-sight stickbow shooters have to compete with the >sighted stickbow shooters or the hard cams against the soft cams and on and >on and on and on. >You know that I’m just kidding about the class books but you get my >point. If it shoots an arrow it’s a bow.. >(Please everybody, don’t come back with the crossbow stuff. Crossbows shoot >bolts, not arrows) >Besides the P & Y club and the B & C Club are supposed to be honoring >the animal and not the hunter or more importantly his equipment. >Woody Williams >If you’re too busy to hunt, you’re too busy >Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at: > http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/
Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at: http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/
Response:
Damn nice buck either way…Kevin Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at: http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Newsgroups: rec.hunting > >Hmmm? Are you aware that some P & Y people think that there should be > >two books. One for compound shooters and one for stickbow shooters? > >> If they > >> do not support that I am still going to use whats legal and really could > >> care less about being in > >> the P&Y book. > >> Lou Green New Jersey > >I really don’t give a rat’s patooie about entering their "contest" > >either.Mitch will be a millionaire by just having the B & C world champ. > >This just threw an egg in P & Y’s face. > >Let’s face it. The man killed the deer with a bow. > >Woody Williams > No, Woody, the man killed the deer with a high letoff compound bow. > Hi Ken, > But it is still a BOW by every criteria but P & Y, isn’t it? Does > P & Y set the standards/rules for all bowhunters or just the ones that want > to enter their contest? In Indiana or NY should we have to abide by our > states regulations concerning what constitutes a bow or should we all defer > to the P & Y’s almighty rules? > That is > not anywhere near any stick bow that I know of in terms of performance. > I understand that. I never said otherwise. Do we judge the animal taken by > the performance of the bow – high or otherwise? Do we say,"Oh well what do > you expect he was shooting a high performance bow. That bow got him the > deer. He didn’t have to hunt it". Ken, we both hunt the big boys and you > and I know that Mitch still had to put himself in the position to kill that > buck. > And as I understand Mitch shot the deer at approximately 15 yards which as > you and I know is well within the killing distance of any hunting bow made. > I’m sure that Mitch knew that when he went afield with the greater than 65 > % letoff that anything that he killed, world record or not, would not be > admissable in P & Y’s contest. I’m not advocating that the P & Y club > accept the deer at all. Thye shouldn’t and I would be dissapoineted if they > did. If you want to enter an animal in their contest then you MUST abide by > their rules. I’m just saying that it is a dumb rule – in my opinion. The > same as the no electronics.My little stick on clock on my upper limb > disqualifies me, as if I wanted to enter anything. > I > agree that the P & Y people are right…there should be two books, one for > stick bow shooters and one for compound shooters. > Then we should also have different books for different classes just like > they do for archery tournaments. If we really want to even out these > dreaded "high performance" issues then we need a class system of some sort. > It’s not fair that the non-sight stickbow shooters have to compete with the > sighted stickbow shooters or the hard cams against the soft cams and on and > on and on and on. > You know that I’m just kidding about the class books but you get my > point. If it shoots an arrow it’s a bow.. > (Please everybody, don’t come back with the crossbow stuff. Crossbows shoot > bolts, not arrows) > Besides the P & Y club and the B & C Club are supposed to be honoring > the animal and not the hunter or more importantly his equipment. > Woody Williams > If you’re too busy to hunt, you’re too busy
This thread marks my one objection to any of the record books. When I go hunting I am trying to participate with nature, to become a predator, not to compete with other hunters. The attitudes toward competition are, in my opinion, the same ones that generate the greed and anamosity <sp> between neighbors during hunting season. Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at: http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/