Israeli tanks invade Gaza The Militant – 6 hours ago BY PAUL PEDERSON. Israeli troops and tanks poured into the Gaza Strip through its southeastern border with Israel just before midnight June 27, in the largest Israeli military operation there since Tel Aviv withdrew its settlements in 2005. … J’lem mufti: Dismissal was punishment Jerusalem Post Bush Says Captured Israel Soldier Should Be Freed Voice of America Seattle Post Intelligencer – Reuters – Monsters and Critics.com – The Moderate Voice – all 3,994 related

Dear President Bush: I’m about to plan a little trip with my family and extended family, and I would like to ask you to assist me. I’m going to walk across the border from the U.S. into Mexico, and I need to make a few arrangements. I know you can help with this. I plan to skip all the legal stuff like visas, passports, immigration quotas and laws. I’m sure they handle those things the same way you do here. So, would you mind telling your buddy, President Vicente Fox, that I’m on my way over? Please let him know that I will be expecting the following: 1. Free medical care for my entire family. 2. English-speaking government bureaucrats for all services I might need, whether I use them or not. 3. All government forms need to be printed in English. 4. I want my kids to be taught by English-speaking teachers. 5. Schools need to include classes on American culture and history. 6. I want my kids to see the American flag flying on the top of the flag pole at their school with the Mexican flag flying lower down. 7. Please plan to feed my kids at school for both breakfast and lunch. 8. I will need a local Mexican driver’s license so I can get easy access to government services. 9. I do not plan to have any car insurance, and I won’t make any effort to learn local traffic laws. 10. In case one of the Mexican police officers does not get the memo from Pres. Fox to leave me alone, please be sure that all police officers speak English. 11. I plan to fly the U.S. flag from my house top, put flag decals on my car, and have a gigantic celebration on July 4th. I do not want any complaints or negative comments from the locals. 12. I would also like to have a nice job without paying any taxes, and don

got this from a friend, and thought i would pass it along. paul David M. Bresnahan April 1, 2006 NewsWithViews.com Dear President Bush: I’m about to plan a little trip with my family and extended family, and I would like to ask you to assist me. I’m going to walk across the border from the U.S. into Mexico, and I need to make a few arrangements. I know you can help with this. I plan to skip all the legal stuff like visas, passports, immigration quotas and laws. I’m sure they handle those things the same way you do here. So, would you mind telling your buddy, President Vicente Fox, that I’m on my way over? Please let him know that I will be expecting the following: 1. Free medical care for my entire family. 2. English-speaking government bureaucrats for all services I might need, whether I use them or not. 3. All government forms need to be printed in English. 4. I want my kids to be taught by English-speaking teachers. 5. Schools need to include classes on American culture and history. 6. I want my kids to see the American flag flying on the top of the flag pole at their school with the Mexican flag flying lower down. 7. Please plan to feed my kids at school for both breakfast and lunch. 8. I will need a local Mexican driver’s license so I can get easy access to government services. 9. I do not plan to have any car insurance, and I won’t make any effort to learn local traffic laws. 10. In case one of the Mexican police officers does not get the memo from Pres. Fox to leave me alone, please be sure that all police officers speak English 11. I plan to fly the U.S. flag from my house top, put flag decals on my car, and have a gigantic celebration on July 4th. I do not want any complaints or negative comments from the locals. 12. I would also like to have a nice job without paying any taxes, and don’t enforce any labor laws or tax laws. 13. Please tell all the people in the country to be extremely nice and never say a critical word about me, or about the strain I might place on the economy. I know this is an easy request because you already do all these things for all the people who come to the U.S. from Mexico. I am sure that Pres. Fox won’t mind returning the favor if you ask him nicely. However, if he gives you any trouble, just invite him to go quail hunting with your V.P. Thank you so much for your kind help. Sincerely, David M. Bresnahan

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> got this from a friend, and thought i would pass it along. > paul > David M. Bresnahan > April 1, 2006 > NewsWithViews.com > Dear President Bush: > I’m about to plan a little trip with my family and extended family, and I > would like to ask you to assist me. I’m going to walk across the border > from the U.S. into Mexico, > and I need to make a few arrangements. I know you can help with this. > I plan to skip all the legal stuff like visas, passports, immigration > quotas and laws. I’m sure they handle those things the same way you do > here. > So, would you mind telling your buddy, President Vicente Fox, that I’m on > my way over? Please let him know that I will be expecting the following: > 1. Free medical care for my entire family. > 2. English-speaking government bureaucrats for all services I might need, > whether I use them or not. > 3. All government forms need to be printed in English. > 4. I want my kids to be taught by English-speaking teachers. > 5. Schools need to include classes on American culture and history. > 6. I want my kids to see the American flag flying on the top of the flag > pole at their school with the Mexican flag flying lower down. > 7. Please plan to feed my kids at school for both breakfast and lunch. > 8. I will need a local Mexican driver’s license so I can get easy access > to government services. > 9. I do not plan to have any car insurance, and I won’t make any effort to > learn local traffic laws. > 10. In case one of the Mexican police officers does not get the memo from > Pres. Fox to leave me alone, please be sure that all police officers speak > English > 11. I plan to fly the U.S. flag from my house top, put flag decals on my > car, and have a gigantic celebration on July 4th. I do not want any > complaints or negative comments from the locals. > 12. I would also like to have a nice job without paying any taxes, and > don’t enforce any labor laws or tax laws. > 13. Please tell all the people in the country to be extremely nice and > never say a critical word about me, or about the strain I might place on > the economy. > I know this is an easy request because you already do all these things for > all the people who come to the U.S. from Mexico. I am sure that Pres. Fox > won’t mind returning the favor if you ask him nicely. > However, if he gives you any trouble, just invite him to go quail hunting > with your V.P. > Thank you so much for your kind help. > Sincerely, > David M. Bresnahan

OR Maybe Have Bush read this! Think on it for a while then let’s talk!!!   Please take the time to read this; It ought to scare you!    IT DID ME!   We know Dick Lamm as the former Governor of Colorado. In that context his thoughts are particularly poignant. Last week there was an immigration overpopulation conference in Washington, DC, filled to capacity by many of American’s finest minds and leaders. A brilliant college professor by the name of Victor Hansen Davis talked about his latest book, Mexifornia," explaining how immigration – both legal and illegal – was destroying the entire state of California. He said it would march across the country until it destroyed all vestiges of The American Dream.   Moments later, former Colorado Governor Richard D. Lamm stood up and gave a stunning speech on how to destroy America. The audience sat spellbound as he described eight methods for the destruction of the United States. He said, "If you believe that America is too smug, too self-satisfied, too rich, then let’s destroy America. It is not that hard to do. No nation in history has survived the ravages of time. Arnold Toynbee observed that all great civilizations rise and fall and that ‘An autopsy of history would show that all great nations commit suicide.’"   Here is how they do it," Lamm said:   "First, to destroy America, turn America into a bilingual or multi-lingual and bicultural country." History shows that no nation can survive the tension, conflict, and antagonism of two or more competing languages and cultures. It is a blessing for an individual to be bilingual; however, it is a curse for a society to be bilingual. The historical scholar, Seymour Lipset, put it this way: "The histories of bilingual and bi-cultural societies that do not assimilate are histories of turmoil, tension, and tragedy." Canada, Belgium, Malaysia, and Lebanon all face crises of national existence in which minorities press for autonomy, if not independence. Pakistan and Cyprus have divided. Nigeria suppressed an ethnic rebellion. France faces difficulties with Basques, Bretons, and Corsicans.".   Lamm went on: Second, to destroy America, "Invent ‘multiculturalism’ and encourage immigrants to maintain their culture. I would make it an article of belief that all cultures are equal. That there are no cultural differences. I would make it an article of faith that the Black and Hispanic dropout rates are due solely to prejudice and discrimination by the majority. Every other explanation is out of bounds.   Third, "We could make the United States an ‘Hispanic Quebec’ without much effort. The key is to celebrate diversity rather than unity. As Benjamin Schwarz said in the Atlantic Monthly recently: "The apparent success of our own multiethnic and multicultural experiment might have been achieved not by tolerance but by hegemony. Without the dominance that once dictated ethnocentricity and what it meant to be an American, we are left with only tolerance and pluralism to hold us together." Lamm said, "I would encourage all immigrants to keep their own language and culture. I would replace the melting pot metaphor with the salad bowl metaphor. It is important to ensure that we have various cultural subgroups living in America enforcing their differences rather than as Americans, emphasizing their similarities."   "Fourth, I would make our fastest growing demographic group the least educated. I would add a second underclass, unassimilated, undereducated, and antagonistic to our population. I would have this second underclass have a 50% dropout rate from high. school."   "My fifth point for destroying America would be to get big foundations and business to give these efforts lots of money. I would invest in ethnic identity, and I would establish the cult of ‘Victimology.’ I would get all minorities to think that their lack of success was the fault of the majority. I would start a grievance industry blaming all minority failure on the majority population."   "My sixth plan for America’s downfall would include dual citizenship, and promote divided loyalties. I would celebrate diversity over unity. I would stress differences rather than similarities. Diverse people worldwide are mostly engaged in hating each other – that is, when they are not killing each other. A diverse, peaceful, or stable society is against most historical precedent. People undervalue the unity it takes to keep a nation together. Look at the ancient Greeks. The Greeks believed that they belonged to the same race; they possessed a common language and literature; and they worshipped the same gods. All Greece took part in the Olympic games. A common enemy, Persia, threatened their liberty. Yet all these bonds were not strong enough to overcome two factors: local patriotism and geographical conditions that nurtured political divisions. Greece fell. "E. Pluribus Unum" — From many, one. In that historical reality, if we put the emphasis on the ‘pluribus’. instead of the ‘Unum,’ we will balkanize America as surely as Kosovo."   "Next to last, I would place all subjects off limits; make it taboo to talk about anything against the cult of ‘diversity.’ I would find a word similar to ‘heretic’ in the 16th century – that stopped discussion and paralyzed thinking. Words like ‘racist’ or ‘xenophobe’ halt discussion and debate. Having made America a bilingual/bicultural country, having established multi-culturism, having the large foundations fund the doctrine of ‘Victimology,’ I would next make it impossible to enforce our immigration laws. I would develop a mantra: That because immigration has been good for America, it must always be good. I would make every individual immigrant symmetric and ignore the cumulative impact of millions of them."   In the last minute of his speech, Governor Lamm wiped his brow. Profound silence followed. Finally he said,. "Lastly, I would censor Victor Hanson Davis’s book Mexifornia. His book is dangerous. It exposes the plan to destroy America. If you feel America. deserves to be destroyed, don’t read that book.".   There was no applause. A chilling fear quietly rose like an ominous cloud above every attendee at the conference. Every American in that room knew that everything Lamm enumerated was proceeding methodically, quietly, darkly, yet pervasively across the United States today. Discussion is being suppressed. Over 100 languages are ripping the foundation of our educational system and national cohesiveness. Even barbaric cultures that practice female genital mutilation are growing as we celebrate ‘diversity.’ American jobs are vanishing into the Third World as corporations create a Third World in. America – take note of California and other states – to date, ten million illegal aliens and growing fast. It is reminiscent of George Orwell’s book "1984." In that story, three slogans are engraved in the Ministry of Truth building: "War is peace," "Freedom is slavery," and "Ignorance is strength.".   Governor Lamm walked back to his seat. It dawned on everyone at the conference that our nation and the future of this great democracy is deeply in trouble and worsening fast. If we don’t get this immigration monster stopped within … read more »

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >  Please take the time to read this; It ought to scare you!    IT DID ME! >  We know Dick Lamm as the former Governor of Colorado. In that context his > thoughts are particularly poignant. Last week there was an immigration > overpopulation conference in Washington, DC, filled to capacity by many of > American’s finest minds and leaders. A brilliant college professor by the > name of Victor Hansen Davis talked about his latest book, Mexifornia," > explaining how immigration – both legal and illegal – was destroying the > entire state of California. He said it would march across the country > until it destroyed all vestiges of The American Dream. >  Moments later, former Colorado Governor Richard D. Lamm stood up and gave > a stunning speech on how to destroy America. The audience sat spellbound > as he described eight methods for the destruction of the United States. He > said, "If you believe that America is too smug, too self-satisfied, too > rich, then let’s destroy America. It is not that hard to do. No nation in > history has survived the ravages of time. Arnold Toynbee observed that all > great civilizations rise and fall and that ‘An autopsy of history would > show that all great nations commit suicide.’" >  Here is how they do it," Lamm said: >  "First, to destroy America, turn America into a bilingual or > multi-lingual and bicultural country." History shows that no nation can > survive the tension, conflict, and antagonism of two or more competing > languages and cultures. It is a blessing for an individual to be > bilingual; however, it is a curse for a society to be bilingual. The > historical scholar, Seymour Lipset, put it this way: "The histories of > bilingual and bi-cultural societies that do not assimilate are histories > of turmoil, tension, and tragedy." Canada, Belgium, Malaysia, and Lebanon > all face crises of national existence in which minorities press for > autonomy, if not independence. Pakistan and Cyprus have divided. Nigeria > suppressed an ethnic rebellion. France faces difficulties with Basques, > Bretons, and Corsicans.".

Nonsense.  Switzerland is bilingual.  China is multilingual.  The new South Africa has 11 official languages.  And Canada and Belgium are not facing crises of national existence by any stretch.  This is hysteria, not a rational assessment. >  Lamm went on: Second, to destroy America, "Invent ‘multiculturalism’ and > encourage immigrants to maintain their culture. I would make it an article > of belief that all cultures are equal. That there are no cultural > differences.

And this is incoherent.  This writer must decide if his bogeyman is the A) maintencence of multiple cultures or B) the argument that there are no cultural differences.  For what it’s worth, I don’t think many people believe B. I would make it an article of faith that the Black and Hispanic > dropout rates are due solely to prejudice and discrimination by the > majority. Every other explanation is out of bounds.

No serious scholar of school dropout rates would put it so simply.  However, the dropout rates are clearly due to environmental conditions, cultural context etc., and prejudice and discrimination have a WHOLE lot to do with those things.  I’m assuming, perhaps erroneously, that the author doesn’t ascribe dropout rates to something inherent or genetic in blacks or hispanics. >  Third, "We could make the United States an ‘Hispanic Quebec’ without much > effort. The key is to celebrate diversity rather than unity. As Benjamin > Schwarz said in the Atlantic Monthly recently: "The apparent success of > our own multiethnic and multicultural experiment might have been achieved > not by tolerance but by hegemony. Without the dominance that once dictated > ethnocentricity and what it meant to be an American, we are left with only > tolerance and pluralism to hold us together." Lamm said, "I would > encourage all immigrants to keep their own language and culture. I would > replace the melting pot metaphor with the salad bowl metaphor. It is > important to ensure that we have various cultural subgroups living in > America enforcing their differences rather than as Americans, emphasizing > their similarities."

We certainly do need to emphasize the qualities that bring us together as much as the rich variety of cultures and beliefs among us.  The question is, what should we put forth as our commonalities?  It’s no good to insist that we share a religious practice, or a sport, or a particular work of art. Better to emphasize our shared committment to educate and love our children, our shared commmittment to the opportunity to better ourselves, our shared committment to civil liberties.  And while I’ll re-state that I don’t believe multiple languages are necessarily a threat, I do believe that we must teach our citizens the language in which our country’s founding documents were written. >  "Fourth, I would make our fastest growing demographic group the least > educated. I would add a second underclass, unassimilated, undereducated, > and antagonistic to our population. I would have this second underclass > have a 50% dropout rate from high. school."

No argument there.  A quality education must be guaranteed to everyone in our community. >  "My fifth point for destroying America would be to get big foundations > and business to give these efforts lots of money. I would invest in ethnic > identity, and I would establish the cult of ‘Victimology.’

Victimology.  Like the guys who are always complaining about reverse discrimination?  Like the people who actually believe there’s a war on Christmas? I would get all > minorities to think that their lack of success was the fault of the > majority. I would start a grievance industry blaming all minority failure > on the majority population."

It seems that a more successful route would be to encourage a majority to believe that their failures were due to threats from minorities – immigrants, jewish bankers, negroes who want their women.  It worked in Nazi Germany.  It worked in the former Yugoslavia.  Yep – convincing the majority that THEY are victims seems a surefire way to divide and destroy a country. >  "My sixth plan

looks a whole lot like the third plan, so I’ll skip it. >  "Next to last, I would place all subjects off limits; make it taboo to > talk about anything against the cult of ‘diversity.’ I would find a word > similar to ‘heretic’ in the 16th century – that stopped discussion and > paralyzed thinking. Words like ‘racist’ or ‘xenophobe’ halt discussion and > debate.

"Terrorist" and "traitor" are also good examples.  If you want open debate, you must be prepared to deal with words like "racist" or "xenophobe" – it’s not like you can outlaw them.  Having made America a bilingual/bicultural country, having > established multi-culturism, having the large foundations fund the > doctrine of ‘Victimology,’ I would next make it impossible to enforce our > immigration laws.

Check!  It is, surely, very difficult to enforce our immigration laws. I would develop a mantra: That because immigration has been good for > America, it must always be good. I would make every individual immigrant > symmetric and ignore the cumulative impact of millions of them."

I’m glad that our government is not ignoring the cumulative impact of millions of immigrants.  It dominated congress and the press for the past week, and the story ain’t over yet. >  In the last minute of his speech, Governor Lamm wiped his brow. Profound > silence followed. Finally he said,. "Lastly, I would censor Victor Hanson > Davis’s book Mexifornia. His book is dangerous. It exposes the plan to > destroy America. If you feel America. deserves to be destroyed, don’t read > that book.".

"If you feel America deserves to be destroyed, don’t read that book." ????? More hysterics.   Give me a break. Of course immigration is an important issue, but  divisive, and -yes- xenophobic commentary like this don’t help. I’m not an economist, and I don’t know how our economy would recover if we didn’t have so many  immigrant workers.  I’d like to see a truly workable plan for immigration.  It would be a whole lot more useful than this fear-mongering.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > got this from a friend, and thought i would pass it along. > paul > David M. Bresnahan > April 1, 2006 > NewsWithViews.com > Dear President Bush: > I’m about to plan a little trip with my family and extended family, and I > would like to ask you to assist me. I’m going to walk across the border from > the U.S. into Mexico, > and I need to make a few arrangements. I know you can help with this. > I plan to skip all the legal stuff like visas, passports, immigration quotas > and laws. I’m sure they handle those things the same way you do here. > So, would you mind telling your buddy, President Vicente Fox, that I’m on my > way over? Please let him know that I will be expecting the following: > 1. Free medical care for my entire family. > 2. English-speaking government bureaucrats for all services I might need, > whether I use them or not. > 3. All government forms need to be printed in English. > 4. I want my kids to be taught by English-speaking teachers. > 5. Schools need to include classes on American culture and history. > 6. I want my kids to see the American flag flying on the top of the flag > pole at their school with the Mexican flag flying lower down. > 7. Please plan to feed my kids at school for both breakfast and lunch. > 8. I will need a local Mexican driver’s license so I can get easy access to > government services. > 9. I do not plan to have any car insurance, and I won’t make any effort to > learn local traffic laws. > 10. In case one of the Mexican police officers does not get the memo from > Pres. Fox to leave me alone, please be sure that all police officers speak > English > 11. I plan to fly the U.S. flag from my house top, put flag decals on my > car, and have a gigantic celebration on July 4th. I do not want any > complaints or negative comments from the locals. > 12. I would also like to have a nice job without paying any taxes, and don’t > enforce any labor laws or tax laws. > 13. Please tell all the people in the country to be extremely nice and never > say a critical word about me, or about the strain I might place on the > economy. > I know this is an easy request because you already do all these things for > all the people who come to the U.S. from Mexico. I am sure that Pres. Fox > won’t mind returning the favor if you ask him nicely. > However, if he gives you any trouble, just invite him to go quail hunting > with your V.P. > Thank you so much for your kind help. > Sincerely, > David M. Bresnahan

Is Dave going to be a dishwasher in a sleazy restaurant or does he aspire to mow lawns as a 50 year old? Oh I know, he’s going to die working for a car wash while his wife cleans houses. mvm

Response:

> I’m not an economist, and I don’t know how our economy would recover if we > didn’t have so many  immigrant workers.  I’d like to see a truly workable > plan for immigration.  It would be a whole lot more useful than this > fear-mongering.

Just as the aging 70’s SNL humerous expression ‘bazbol bin betty goot to me’, ‘Fear-mongering’ has been betty goot to America’s neocon whacko fringe right wing. Michael Moore did a great job of pointing that out in his 2004 film exposing Bush, Wolfowitz, etc for what they are -but nobody wanted to hear it….then. As well, Al Franken NAILED FoxNews with his _Lies_and_the_Lying_Liars_Who_Tell_Them. Ah, *what* a difference a little time can make. It’s why I’m still detonating nutjobs in AGA and that jerkoff tech in Denver and that trust fund pantload amp maker in Brea, CA aren’t here anymore. Stalky, Claudel and Devin are still fun to slap down though. mvm

Response:

 > I’m not an economist, and I don’t know how our economy would recover  >if we didn’t have so many  immigrant workers.  I’d like to see a truly  >workable plan for immigration.  It would be a whole lot more useful  >than this fear-mongering. Just as the aging 70’s SNL humerous expression ‘bazbol bin betty goot to me’, rang true, ‘Fear-mongering’ has been betty goot to America’s neocon whacko fringe right wing. Michael Moore did a great job of pointing that out in his 2004 film exposing Bush, Wolfowitz, etc for what they are -but nobody wanted to hear it….then. As well, Al Franken NAILED FoxNews with his _Lies_and_the_Lying_Liars_Who_Tell_Them_. Ah, *what* a difference a little time can make. It’s why I’m still detonating nutjobs in AGA and that jerkoff tech in Denver and that trust fund pantload amp maker in Brea, CA aren’t here anymore. Stalky, Claudel and Devin are still fun to slap down though. mvm

Response:

>> I’m not an economist, and I don’t know how our economy would recover if > we didn’t have so many  immigrant workers.  I’d like to see a truly > workable plan for immigration.  It would be a whole lot more useful than > this fear-mongering. > Just as the aging 70’s SNL humerous expression ‘bazbol bin betty goot to > me’, ‘Fear-mongering’ has been betty goot to America’s neocon whacko > fringe right wing. > Michael Moore did a great job of pointing that out in his 2004 film > exposing Bush, Wolfowitz, etc for what they are -but nobody wanted

i would try to address the points that you made in your post, but after saying this, NOTHING you say has ANY importance or relevance to ANY political discussion. Michael More (or less) is the poorly drawn comic book of the political world. if you believe in michael more (or less) then I don’t believe in you! paul az

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I’m not an economist, and I don’t know how our economy would recover if > we didn’t have so many  immigrant workers.  I’d like to see a truly > workable plan for immigration.  It would be a whole lot more useful than > this fear-mongering. > Just as the aging 70’s SNL humerous expression ‘bazbol bin betty goot to > me’, rang true, ‘Fear-mongering’ has been betty goot to America’s neocon > whacko fringe right wing. > Michael Moore did a great job of pointing that out in his 2004 film > exposing Bush, Wolfowitz, etc for what they are -but nobody wanted > to hear it….then. As well, Al Franken NAILED FoxNews with his > _Lies_and_the_Lying_Liars_Who_Tell_Them_. > Ah, *what* a difference a little time can make. It’s why I’m still > detonating nutjobs in AGA and that jerkoff tech in Denver and that > trust fund pantload amp maker in Brea, CA aren’t here anymore. > Stalky, Claudel and Devin are still fun to slap down though. mvm

careful, driplog, it appears that you’re stuttering.;- ) paul – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

Leave ol Lemony Snicket alone. Your man in the White House leaked to destroy people and promote the neocons evil intentions for their own profit. When are you gonna catch on???? That film is gonna make Mike’s look like Disney. What is it going to take to make you wake up. There’s a fire blazing. It’s time to go fetch the fire hose.

Response:

Oh so that’s why Europeans speak at least three languages…..in order to destroy their way of life. Ummm and THAT"s why Europeans and Asians are so behind our students in math there’s too much diversity over there, hell there’s hundreds of dialects in China ….when they finally force everyone to speak one language – they’ll kick our buts!!!!!  They be so ADVANCED!!!! (Oh they tried that before…..they had a cultural revolution that tried to make everyone the same – Hey that worked out well didn’t it? Maybe they’ll try that here too????)

Response:

> Leave ol Lemony Snicket alone. Your man in the White House leaked to > destroy people and promote the neocons evil intentions for their own > profit. When are you gonna catch on????

come on now, Bush ain’t no Reagan, but he’s a FAR cry from being some kind of LBJ.

Response:

> > Leave ol Lemony Snicket alone. Your man in the White House leaked to > destroy people and promote the neocons evil intentions for their own > profit. When are you gonna catch on???? > come on now, Bush ain’t no Reagan, but he’s a FAR cry from being some kind > of LBJ.

yup – hes’ way worse. At least LBJ’s wife made the highways purty. Gave Austin the hike and bike trails. Funny you should mention LBJ – I visited his library last week with my Dad. Boy…..some memories should never re awaken. On the way out he stopped in the gift shop to buy some wildflower seeds. Imagine what the cashier thought when he blurted out, "I’m German. I remember when the allieds came to town. There were thousands of pictures of Hitler thrown in the river. Thousands of picture of Hitler just flowing down the river. I imagine that some of the soldiers picked them up for souveniers." LBJ was a veritable fountain of off color jokes whichif he were to tell today would get him PCd outta town by the right wing crowd. really you guys are the champions at being PC, more than the left could hope to be. He made a bargain with the devil. I’ll give you 60,000 young men in exchange for civil rights and prosperity. It just depends on whether the devil got you if that was a good deal or not. So Bush has made his deal with the devil, I’ll give you this whole country if I and my buddies can become jillionaires tax free. Well there’s bad and then there’s badder. Bush is badder.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>I’m not an economist, and I don’t know how our economy would recover if >>we didn’t have so many  immigrant workers.  I’d like to see a truly >>workable plan for immigration.  It would be a whole lot more useful than >>this fear-mongering. >Just as the aging 70’s SNL humerous expression ‘bazbol bin betty goot to >me’, ‘Fear-mongering’ has been betty goot to America’s neocon whacko >fringe right wing. >Michael Moore did a great job of pointing that out in his 2004 film >exposing Bush, Wolfowitz, etc for what they are -but nobody wanted > i would try to address the points that you made in your post, but after > saying this, NOTHING you say has ANY importance or relevance to ANY > political discussion. Michael More (or less) is the poorly drawn comic book > of the political world. > if you believe in michael more (or less) then I don’t believe in you! > paul > az

Michael Moore has more sense in one of his sack hairs than your entire genetic code.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>I’m not an economist, and I don’t know how our economy would recover if >>we didn’t have so many  immigrant workers.  I’d like to see a truly >>workable plan for immigration.  It would be a whole lot more useful than >>this fear-mongering. >Just as the aging 70’s SNL humerous expression ‘bazbol bin betty goot to >me’, rang true, ‘Fear-mongering’ has been betty goot to America’s neocon >whacko fringe right wing. >Michael Moore did a great job of pointing that out in his 2004 film >exposing Bush, Wolfowitz, etc for what they are -but nobody wanted >to hear it….then. As well, Al Franken NAILED FoxNews with his >_Lies_and_the_Lying_Liars_Who_Tell_Them_. >Ah, *what* a difference a little time can make. It’s why I’m still >detonating nutjobs in AGA and that jerkoff tech in Denver and that >trust fund pantload amp maker in Brea, CA aren’t here anymore. >Stalky, Claudel and Devin are still fun to slap down though. mvm > careful, driplog, it appears that you’re stuttering.;- ) > paul

P-p-p-paul, I should have added your name! <BLAM!>. Go bleed it off, -b-b-b-bitch

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>>I’m not an economist, and I don’t know how our economy would recover if >>>we didn’t have so many  immigrant workers.  I’d like to see a truly >>>workable plan for immigration.  It would be a whole lot more useful than >>>this fear-mongering. >>Just as the aging 70’s SNL humerous expression ‘bazbol bin betty goot to >>me’, rang true, ‘Fear-mongering’ has been betty goot to America’s neocon >>whacko fringe right wing. >>Michael Moore did a great job of pointing that out in his 2004 film >>exposing Bush, Wolfowitz, etc for what they are -but nobody wanted >>to hear it….then. As well, Al Franken NAILED FoxNews with his >>_Lies_and_the_Lying_Liars_Who_Tell_Them_. >>Ah, *what* a difference a little time can make. It’s why I’m still >>detonating nutjobs in AGA and that jerkoff tech in Denver and that >>trust fund pantload amp maker in Brea, CA aren’t here anymore. >>Stalky, Claudel and Devin are still fun to slap down though. mvm > careful, driplog, it appears that you’re stuttering.;- ) > paul >P-p-p-paul, I should have added your name! <BLAM!>. Go bleed it off, >-b-b-b-bitch

Marc, you *are* a great comedic artist after all. Writing people’s screen names on *little* Marc before that hot date with Mr. Left Hand and calling it a "slap down". Now *that’s* humor. A bit sad and pathetic, but still funny. Keep up the good work. Your pal. Claude

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>>>I’m not an economist, and I don’t know how our economy would recover if >>>>we didn’t have so many  immigrant workers.  I’d like to see a truly >>>>workable plan for immigration.  It would be a whole lot more useful than >>>>this fear-mongering. >>>Just as the aging 70’s SNL humerous expression ‘bazbol bin betty goot to >>>me’, rang true, ‘Fear-mongering’ has been betty goot to America’s neocon >>>whacko fringe right wing. >>>Michael Moore did a great job of pointing that out in his 2004 film >>>exposing Bush, Wolfowitz, etc for what they are -but nobody wanted >>>to hear it….then. As well, Al Franken NAILED FoxNews with his >>>_Lies_and_the_Lying_Liars_Who_Tell_Them_. >>>Ah, *what* a difference a little time can make. It’s why I’m still >>>detonating nutjobs in AGA and that jerkoff tech in Denver and that >>>trust fund pantload amp maker in Brea, CA aren’t here anymore. >>>Stalky, Claudel and Devin are still fun to slap down though. mvm >>careful, driplog, it appears that you’re stuttering.;- ) >>paul >P-p-p-paul, I should have added your name! <BLAM!>. Go bleed it off, >-b-b-b-bitch > Marc, you *are* a great comedic artist after all. > Writing people’s screen names on *little* Marc before > that hot date with Mr. Left Hand and calling it a "slap down". > Now *that’s* humor. > A bit sad and pathetic, but still funny. > Keep up the good work. > Your pal. > Claude

Claudel, Your only pals probably died of AIDS and I’m sorry for you about that, honestly. At your advanced age however, striking out like a child who’s acting out because he doesn’t understand his own emotions is well, -S,P,   and deserved of the moniker ‘A’ at your age. Wise up, — ‘ol toad. Your idol, Marc

Response:

>Nonsense.  Switzerland is bilingual.

Mostly German with some French. Come on, is thatphilsophically the same or are you just counting numbers? >China is multilingual.

Are you holding up China as the model for the world to emulate with its many countries-within-a-country, languages, and cultures? >The new South Africa has 11 official languages.

Again, your idea of a successful culture and nation? >And Canada and Belgium are not facing >crises of national existence by any stretch.

What would you think of California voting to secede and become a new nation like Quebec has tried to do? Does that constitute a crisis of national existence? >This is hysteria, not a >rational assessment.

I agree that today it is hysteria, but hopefully someday soon it’ll congeal into a national state of mind.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>>I’m not an economist, and I don’t know how our economy would recover if >>>we didn’t have so many  immigrant workers.  I’d like to see a truly >>>workable plan for immigration.  It would be a whole lot more useful than >>>this fear-mongering. >>Just as the aging 70’s SNL humerous expression ‘bazbol bin betty goot to >>me’, ‘Fear-mongering’ has been betty goot to America’s neocon whacko >>fringe right wing. >>Michael Moore did a great job of pointing that out in his 2004 film >>exposing Bush, Wolfowitz, etc for what they are -but nobody wanted > i would try to address the points that you made in your post, but after > saying this, NOTHING you say has ANY importance or relevance to ANY > political discussion. Michael More (or less) is the poorly drawn comic > book of the political world. > if you believe in michael more (or less) then I don’t believe in you! > paul > az > Michael Moore has more sense in one of his sack hairs than your entire > genetic code.

it is this kind of thinking that explains why you don’t count.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Nonsense.  Switzerland is bilingual. > Mostly German with some French. Come on, is thatphilsophically the same > or are you just counting numbers? >China is multilingual. > Are you holding up China as the model for the world to emulate with its > many countries-within-a-country, languages, and cultures? >The new South Africa has 11 official languages. > Again, your idea of a successful culture and nation? >And Canada and Belgium are not facing >crises of national existence by any stretch. > What would you think of California voting to secede and become a new > nation like Quebec has tried to do? Does that constitute a crisis of > national existence?

Hi, QC does not want to separate. It’s their political tool to get more from central government. Quebec people are not stupid. But good politically minded. Tony – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->This is hysteria, not a >rational assessment. > I agree that today it is hysteria, but hopefully someday soon it’ll > congeal into a national state of mind.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> Nonsense.  Switzerland is bilingual. > Mostly German with some French. Come on, is thatphilsophically the same > or are you just counting numbers? >> China is multilingual. > Are you holding up China as the model for the world to emulate with its > many countries-within-a-country, languages, and cultures? >> The new South Africa has 11 official languages. > Again, your idea of a successful culture and nation? >> And Canada and Belgium are not facing >> crises of national existence by any stretch. > What would you think of California voting to secede and become a new > nation like Quebec has tried to do? Does that constitute a crisis of > national existence? > Hi, > QC does not want to separate. It’s their political tool to get more from > central government. Quebec people are not stupid. But good politically > minded. > Tony

I’ll remember that *explination* the next time you post about Americans…. … ‘we’re just politically minded..’ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> This is hysteria, not a >> rational assessment. > I agree that today it is hysteria, but hopefully someday soon it’ll > congeal into a national state of mind.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>>>I’m not an economist, and I don’t know how our economy would recover if >>>>we didn’t have so many  immigrant workers.  I’d like to see a truly >>>>workable plan for immigration.  It would be a whole lot more useful than >>>>this fear-mongering. >>>Just as the aging 70’s SNL humerous expression ‘bazbol bin betty goot to >>>me’, ‘Fear-mongering’ has been betty goot to America’s neocon whacko >>>fringe right wing. >>>Michael Moore did a great job of pointing that out in his 2004 film >>>exposing Bush, Wolfowitz, etc for what they are -but nobody wanted >>i would try to address the points that you made in your post, but after >>saying this, NOTHING you say has ANY importance or relevance to ANY >>political discussion. Michael More (or less) is the poorly drawn comic >>book of the political world. >>if you believe in michael more (or less) then I don’t believe in you! >>paul >>az >Michael Moore has more sense in one of his sack hairs than your entire >genetic code. > it is this kind of thinking that explains why you don’t count.

Past a billion of your idiotic posts?

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>>>>I’m not an economist, and I don’t know how our economy would recover >>>>>if we didn’t have so many  immigrant workers.  I’d like to see a truly >>>>>workable plan for immigration.  It would be a whole lot more useful >>>>>than this fear-mongering. >>>>Just as the aging 70’s SNL humerous expression ‘bazbol bin betty goot >>>>to me’, ‘Fear-mongering’ has been betty goot to America’s neocon whacko >>>>fringe right wing. >>>>Michael Moore did a great job of pointing that out in his 2004 film >>>>exposing Bush, Wolfowitz, etc for what they are -but nobody wanted >>>i would try to address the points that you made in your post, but after >>>saying this, NOTHING you say has ANY importance or relevance to ANY >>>political discussion. Michael More (or less) is the poorly drawn comic >>>book of the political world. >>>if you believe in michael more (or less) then I don’t believe in you! >>>paul >>>az >>Michael Moore has more sense in one of his sack hairs than your entire >>genetic code. > it is this kind of thinking that explains why you don’t count. > Past a billion of your idiotic posts?

…and you can’t count. maybe part of the reason you DON’T count. compared to you, i am a pretty light poster! paul az

Response:

>Nonsense.  Switzerland is bilingual. > Mostly German with some French. Come on, is thatphilsophically the same > or are you just counting numbers?

I don’t know if the number of French speakers in Switzerland is any larger, proportionally than the number of Spanish (or Arabic or Mandarin or French) speakers in the US.  The point is, they don’t cause a threat to the country. >China is multilingual. > Are you holding up China as the model for the world to emulate with its > many countries-within-a-country, languages, and cultures?

Again, I’m pointing out that the multiple languages do not, on the face of it, equal a threat to the country. >The new South Africa has 11 official languages. > Again, your idea of a successful culture and nation?

Hard to say at this point.  You have to admit that they made a REMARKABLE transition to majority rule without outright warfare.  The have an admirable, progressive constitution.  And they have a lot of lingering problems, the roots of which are lingering apartheid and poverty – not multiple languages. >And Canada and Belgium are not facing >crises of national existence by any stretch. > What would you think of California voting to secede and become a new > nation like Quebec has tried to do? Does that constitute a crisis of > national existence?

It doesn’t look like Canada’s going anywhere. >This is hysteria, not a >rational assessment. > I agree that today it is hysteria, but hopefully someday soon it’ll > congeal into a national state of mind.

We don’t need fear and xenophobia as a national state of mind.  We need a rational, enforceable, economical and just policy on immigration.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>>>>>I’m not an economist, and I don’t know how our economy would recover >>>>>>if we didn’t have so many  immigrant workers.  I’d like to see a truly >>>>>>workable plan for immigration.  It would be a whole lot more useful >>>>>>than this fear-mongering. >>>>>Just as the aging 70’s SNL humerous expression ‘bazbol bin betty goot >>>>>to me’, ‘Fear-mongering’ has been betty goot to America’s neocon whacko >>>>>fringe right wing. >>>>>Michael Moore did a great job of pointing that out in his 2004 film >>>>>exposing Bush, Wolfowitz, etc for what they are -but nobody wanted >>>>i would try to address the points that you made in your post, but after >>>>saying this, NOTHING you say has ANY importance or relevance to ANY >>>>political discussion. Michael More (or less) is the poorly drawn comic >>>>book of the political world. >>>>if you believe in michael more (or less) then I don’t believe in you! >>>>paul >>>>az >>>Michael Moore has more sense in one of his sack hairs than your entire >>>genetic code. >>it is this kind of thinking that explains why you don’t count. >Past a billion of your idiotic posts? > …and you can’t count. maybe part of the reason you DON’T count. compared > to you, i am a pretty light poster! > paul > az

Contrasted to me, you *are* a _lite_weight intellect. Physically however, I’ll bet you’re a beer-gutted waddler.

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All of Europe and the far east are multilingual. If one spoke English, Spanish and Chinese, one could be understood anywhere. America is one of only a few places I’ve been where being undereducated is a point of pride. FWIW "Ich spreche Deutsch aber nicht gut."

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>Nonsense.  Switzerland is bilingual. > Mostly German with some French. Come on, is thatphilsophically the same > or are you just counting numbers? >>China is multilingual. > Are you holding up China as the model for the world to emulate with its > many countries-within-a-country, languages, and cultures? >>The new South Africa has 11 official languages. > Again, your idea of a successful culture and nation? >>And Canada and Belgium are not facing >>crises of national existence by any stretch. > What would you think of California voting to secede and become a new > nation like Quebec has tried to do? Does that constitute a crisis of > national existence? > Hi, > QC does not want to separate. It’s their political tool to get more from > central government. Quebec people are not stupid. But good politically > minded. > Tony >>This is hysteria, not a >>rational assessment. > I agree that today it is hysteria, but hopefully someday soon it’ll > congeal into a national state of mind.

Response:

Love it! You take the prize for the year’s best non-copied, original post! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> WASHINGTON, D.C. – A white house source stated that Congress is > considering awarding Vice-President Dick Cheney the Medal of Freedom, > the national highest civilian commendation, for his act of bravery in > shooting an attorney. > The source was quoted to say "All Americans have wanted to shoot a > lawyer at one time or another and Cheney actually had the balls to do > it". > In a related story, the Texas Parks and Wildlife Department, which > issues hunting licenses, said that it will start requiring hunters, > wishing to bag a lawyer, to have the new "lawyer’s stamp" on their > hunting license. Currently Texas hunters are required to carry stamps > for hunting birds, deer, and bear, at a cost of $7 annually. he new > "lawyers stamp" will cost $100, but open season will be all year long. > The department further stated that although the "lawyers stamp" comes > at hefty price, sales have been brisk and it is believed it will > generate annual revenues in excess of $3 billion dollars the first > year. Other states are considering similar hunting license stamps.

Response:

WASHINGTON, D.C. – A white house source stated that Congress is considering awarding Vice-President Dick Cheney the Medal of Freedom, the national highest civilian commendation, for his act of bravery in shooting an attorney. The source was quoted to say "All Americans have wanted to shoot a lawyer at one time or another and Cheney actually had the balls to do it". In a related story, the Texas Parks and Wildlife Department, which issues hunting licenses, said that it will start requiring hunters, wishing to bag a lawyer, to have the new "lawyer’s stamp" on their hunting license. Currently Texas hunters are required to carry stamps for hunting birds, deer, and bear, at a cost of $7 annually. he new "lawyers stamp" will cost $100, but open season will be all year long. The department further stated that although the "lawyers stamp" comes at hefty price, sales have been brisk and it is believed it will generate annual revenues in excess of $3 billion dollars the first year. Other states are considering similar hunting license stamps.

Response:

Captive Saddam misses Ronald Reagan, magazine says NEW YORK (Reuters) – Saddam Hussein likes Doritos, washes his hands compulsively and thinks fondly of the late U.S. President Ronald Reagan, according to American soldiers who guarded him and tell their story in the July issue of GQ magazine. The jailed former Iraqi leader described how Reagan, who was president during the time of Iraq’s 1980-88 war with Iran, sold him planes and helicopters. "Reagan and me, good,"’ Saddam said, according to the article by Lisa DePaulo in the July issue that goes on sale June 28. "He said, ‘I wish things were like when Ronald Reagan was still president,"’ said one of the soldiers who guarded him.

Response:

> Captive Saddam misses Ronald Reagan, magazine says > NEW YORK (Reuters) – Saddam Hussein likes Doritos, washes his hands > compulsively and thinks fondly of the late U.S. President Ronald Reagan, > according to American soldiers who guarded him and tell their story in > the July issue of GQ magazine. > The jailed former Iraqi leader described how Reagan, who was president > during the time of Iraq’s 1980-88 war with Iran, sold him planes and > helicopters. "Reagan and me, good,"’ Saddam said, according to the > article by Lisa DePaulo in the July issue that goes on sale June 28. > "He said, ‘I wish things were like when Ronald Reagan was still > president,"’ said one of the soldiers who guarded him.

That was the time when hatred of Iran was at an all time high and our weapons policy toward Iraq was if he can defeat Iran give him what ever he wants. Then the elder Bush screwed him on a back door oil deal and threats were issued. And the rest as they say is history…..

Response:

> That was the time when hatred of Iran was at an all time high and our > weapons policy toward Iraq was if he can defeat Iran give him what ever he > wants.

  Letme recall that little piece of history.   1. Iraq was at war with Iran over a little piece of a river bed,      nothing that WW1 era mustard gas couldn’t cure. 2. RR and his crew gave/sold missles to Iraq to fight      mean and evil Iran after they held 90 Americans      becasue the USA dicked around with some obscure Shaw.   3. Later, Iraq fired those missles at Kuwait Oil tankers. 4. US Navy came over to protect our tankers from      misguided missles that RR sold Iraq, eventually      shooting down an Iran passager airliner.   Fast forward 20 years, and Iraq is still shooting   at US military likely with shoulder launched   missiles and bullets left over from 1983.   I can see why he like Reagan then.

Response:

Fast forward yet another 5-10 years and the US/UK will be engaged in an 18 month long WWIII w/ China & Russia as allies. The mid-east will be oil-fueling the Chinese war effort. Al Queda will be greasing all supply skids just as La Cosa Nostra did for the U.S. in Sicily, during the 1940’s. It’s a shame it takes BIG war to effect major, significant technological change. Since oil is critical to aviation and shipping war efforts, there will be none available to Joe 6 Pack the motorist or home heater. Watch how quick America turns on a dime toward hydrogen fuel. After the war and <10 mushroom clouds on this end, the Green revolution can resume in earnest. Except in old contaminated Manhatten, D.C., N. Jersey, Ohio/Indiana or S.TX/S.LA industrial "Ground Zero" areas. Finally, vast swaths of heretofore desolate U.S. nature hinterlands will be used to rebuild entire cities and hydrogen complexes. THAT will revive the U.S. economy…the Marshall Project on the contiguous 48. Us geezers will regale little ones ad nauseum with; "There was once a great city there…" and "Great Grandma and I remember formations   and deserts for as farrrrrrrrrr as the eye could see…-but that was before the WAR you see-" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> That was the time when hatred of Iran was at an all time high and our > weapons policy toward Iraq was if he can defeat Iran give him what > ever he wants. >  Letme recall that little piece of history. >  1. Iraq was at war with Iran over a little piece of a river bed, >     nothing that WW1 era mustard gas couldn’t cure. > 2. RR and his crew gave/sold missles to Iraq to fight >     mean and evil Iran after they held 90 Americans >     becasue the USA dicked around with some obscure Shaw. >  3. Later, Iraq fired those missles at Kuwait Oil tankers. > 4. US Navy came over to protect our tankers from >     misguided missles that RR sold Iraq, eventually >     shooting down an Iran passager airliner. >  Fast forward 20 years, and Iraq is still shooting >  at US military likely with shoulder launched >  missiles and bullets left over from 1983. >  I can see why he like Reagan then.

Response:

>  I can see why he like Reagan then.

Some good points there! Somethings that seem like a great idea at one place in time can sometimes haunt you later. See ya, John

Response:

> M.Butzin lied: > That was the time when hatred of Iran was at an all time high and our > weapons policy toward Iraq was if he can defeat Iran give him what ever > he wants. >

Tota;l horeshit, Saddam/Iraq was a Soviet client state and was armed with Russian, Chinese and also, French weaponry. >  1. Iraq was at war with Iran over a little piece of a river bed, nothing > that WW1 era mustard gas couldn’t cure.>

Provided by your commie friends, the Russkies. > 2. RR and his crew gave/sold missles to Iraq to fight  mean and evil Iran > after they held 90 Americans  becasue the USA dicked around with some > obscure Shaw.>

Well, forst, it was the Shah, who was trying to modernize and educate Iran. If you want to compre the statius of Iran before & after the fall of the Shah, go ahead, it’s very enlightenming to learn what a bunch of ignorant, Islamist racist/sexist religious thugs can do to a country in 25 years. >  3. Later, Iraq fired those missles at Kuwait Oil tankers.>

OOOPS! Another lie, Butzins nose is GROWING!!! Turns out the Iraqis fired FRENCH EXOCET missles, from FRENCH Super Etendard fighters at the tankers, AND, almost sank the USS Stark in the process, killng many US sailors. > 4. US Navy came over to protect our tankers from misguided missles that RR > sold Iraq, eventually shooting down an Iran passager airliner.>

While they were being attacked by Iranian radicals in gunboats. The dumb-ass Iranians flew an airliner right into a combat zone & got what they had coming, sorry. >  Fast forward 20 years, and Iraq is still shooting at US military likely > with shoulder launched  missiles and bullets left over from 1983.>

All provided by your commie buddies, the Soviets. Feel better now, dickhead?

Response:

> Provided by your commie friends, the Russkies.

Not my friends >  racist/sexist religious thugs can do to a country in 25 years.

Stay tuned . we have another 15 years to go. > OOOPS! Another lie, Butzins nose is GROWING!!! Turns out the Iraqis fired > FRENCH EXOCET missles, from FRENCH Super Etendard fighters at the tankers,

  Oops, not a lie. My mistake. Still with so  much crap stockplied  there   who really knows who shot which model at what ship ? > While they were being attacked by Iranian radicals in gunboats. The dumb-ass > Iranians flew an airliner right into a combat zone & got what they had > coming, sorry.

  Somewhat agree. > Fast forward 20 years, and Iraq is still shooting at US military likely >with shoulder launched  missiles and bullets left over from 1983.> > All provided by your commie buddies, the Soviets. Feel better now, dickhead?

  Again, not my friends. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

> Fast forward yet another 5-10 years and the US/UK will be engaged in an > 18 month long WWIII w/ China & Russia as allies.

  Is Russia still a threat ? I don’t figure them and the Chinese getting along. They would be part of the vast swallow. Chinese WWIII would be horrible. Other than a nuke, they would be unstoppable swarming over the middle east. > The mid-east will be oil-fueling the Chinese war effort. Al Queda will > be greasing all supply skids just as La Cosa Nostra did for the U.S. in > Sicily, during the 1940’s.

  I don’t know how trustworthly the Chinese are to anyone.   More than likely it would be take no hostages.  > After the war and <10 mushroom clouds on > this end, the Green revolution can resume in earnest.

  More like Mad Max in  the movie where they live in oil complex. > Except in old contaminated Manhatten, D.C., N. Jersey, Ohio/Indiana or > S.TX/S.LA industrial "Ground Zero" areas. > hinterlands will be used to rebuild entire cities and hydrogen complexes.

  My 10000 acre Nevada desert ranch will be beach front.

Response:

>> Fast forward yet another 5-10 years and the US/UK will be engaged in an 18 month long WWIII w/ China & Russia as allies. >  Is Russia still a threat ? I don’t figure them and the Chinese getting along.

Yes, they own and control stockpile of MIRV’d ICBM’s that didn’t simply melt the day the USSR dissolved. The Russians have been selling the Chinese advanced war technology for many years- Most notably, air-to-air combat radar systems and supersonic magnesium burning torpedo technology for nuclear aircraft carrier lethalty. The Chinese and the russians cooperate better than the Americans and the French. > They would be part of the vast swallow. > Chinese WWIII would be horrible. Other than a nuke, they would be unstoppable swarming over the middle east.

Nuclear weapons will be used by both sides against each other– hence a duration of less than two years. Once they’re used, the battles will quickly cease. They won’t be used for the 1 to 1.5 years > The mid-east will be oil-fueling the Chinese war effort. Al Queda will be greasing all supply skids just as La Cosa Nostra did for the U.S. in > Sicily, during the 1940’s. >  I don’t know how trustworthly the Chinese are to anyone. More than likely it would be take no hostages.

Politics have made "strange bedfellows" since man walked upright….The U.S. / U.S.S.R. "allies" vs. Germany and Japan 1940’s? >  > After the war and <10 mushroom clouds on this end, the Green revolution can resume in earnest. >  More like Mad Max in  the movie where they live in oil complex.

That’s the complacency our and past generations have retreated to; Movie Land. Hollywood THIS;  a nation of One Billion Five Hundred Million mobilizing for war with the help of Russia & Arab Mid Eastern oil nations against the USA, UK and Australia while 90% of Europe ducks and covers, nowhere to be found. > Except in old contaminated Manhatten, D.C., N. Jersey, Ohio/Indiana or S.TX/S.LA industrial "Ground Zero" areas. hinterlands will be used to > rebuild entire cities and hydrogen complexes. >  My 10000 acre Nevada desert ranch will be beach front.

No it won’t, but after the war, your land values will skyrocket as the US Govt. enables privatization of the majority of Nevada it now owns as well as great swaths of other real estate now in Govt. hands across SW States. The "New Frontier" will be…the old one. America will become isolationist Green (The "New" hydrogen and nuclear power economy), licking wounds and rebuilding. China will have been reduced to bouncing radioactive rubble. Russia will take a few hits as the U.S. did, but niether will be anything like China in the vast wasteland dept. btw- Pyongyang N. Korea, Tokyo and many other Japanese cities will be vaporized. So will San Diego, Los Angeles, San Jose through "Silicon Valley" and Seattle. San Francisco itself —and its huge Asian population— will be spared, remaining the sole West Coast jewel city of the old America.

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The good news- Once Washington D.C. disgorges itself of the last of the TheoGunCons (2008), none of this need come to pass. If however, the Anti-TheoGunCons get only a 4 year shot and the USA falls under TheoGunCon control once more, the Chinese will then be ready to take Taiwan in 2012. 2012-2016 all bets on US Security and military dominance of Earth are off. That torch will have finally passed and all that matters is how D.C. reacts to the most deadly force it has ever encountered. Reading about a trickle of dead Marines halfway around the planet will seem as trite as reading about trench warfare in France seems, today. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> Fast forward yet another 5-10 years and the US/UK will be engaged in >> an 18 month long WWIII w/ China & Russia as allies. >  Is Russia still a threat ? I don’t figure them and the Chinese > getting along. > Yes, they own and control stockpile of MIRV’d ICBM’s that didn’t simply > melt the day the USSR dissolved. The Russians > have been selling the Chinese advanced war technology for many years- > Most notably, air-to-air combat radar systems > and supersonic magnesium burning torpedo technology for nuclear aircraft > carrier lethalty. > The Chinese and the russians cooperate better than the Americans and the > French. > They would be part of the vast swallow. > Chinese WWIII would be horrible. Other than a nuke, they would be > unstoppable swarming over the middle east. > Nuclear weapons will be used by both sides against each other– hence a > duration of less than two years. Once they’re used, the > battles will quickly cease. They won’t be used for the 1 to 1.5 years >> The mid-east will be oil-fueling the Chinese war effort. Al Queda >> will be greasing all supply skids just as La Cosa Nostra did for the >> U.S. in >> Sicily, during the 1940’s. >  I don’t know how trustworthly the Chinese are to anyone. More than > likely it would be take no hostages. > Politics have made "strange bedfellows" since man walked upright….The > U.S. / U.S.S.R. "allies" vs. Germany and Japan 1940’s? >  > After the war and <10 mushroom clouds on this end, the Green > revolution can resume in earnest. >  More like Mad Max in  the movie where they live in oil complex. > That’s the complacency our and past generations have retreated to; Movie > Land. Hollywood THIS;  a nation of One Billion Five Hundred Million > mobilizing > for war with the help of Russia & Arab Mid Eastern oil nations against > the USA, UK and Australia while 90% of Europe ducks and covers, nowhere > to be found. >> Except in old contaminated Manhatten, D.C., N. Jersey, Ohio/Indiana >> or S.TX/S.LA industrial "Ground Zero" areas. hinterlands will be used >> to rebuild entire cities and hydrogen complexes. >  My 10000 acre Nevada desert ranch will be beach front. > No it won’t, but after the war, your land values will skyrocket as the > US Govt. enables privatization of the majority of Nevada it now owns as > well as great > swaths of other real estate now in Govt. hands across SW States. > The "New Frontier" will be…the old one. > America will become isolationist Green (The "New" hydrogen and nuclear > power economy), licking wounds and rebuilding. > China will have been reduced to bouncing radioactive rubble. Russia will > take a few hits as the U.S. did, but niether will be anything like China > in the > vast wasteland dept. btw- Pyongyang N. Korea, Tokyo and many other > Japanese cities will be vaporized. So will San Diego, Los Angeles, San Jose > through "Silicon Valley" and Seattle. > San Francisco itself —and its huge Asian population— will be spared, > remaining the sole West Coast jewel city of the old America.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> M.Butzin lied: >> That was the time when hatred of Iran was at an all time high and our >> weapons policy toward Iraq was if he can defeat Iran give him what ever >> he wants. > > Tota;l horeshit, Saddam/Iraq was a Soviet client state and was armed with > Russian, Chinese and also, French weaponry. >  1. Iraq was at war with Iran over a little piece of a river bed, nothing > that WW1 era mustard gas couldn’t cure.> > Provided by your commie friends, the Russkies. > 2. RR and his crew gave/sold missles to Iraq to fight  mean and evil Iran > after they held 90 Americans  becasue the USA dicked around with some > obscure Shaw.> > Well, forst, it was the Shah, who was trying to modernize and educate > Iran. If you want to compre the statius of Iran before & after the fall of > the Shah, go ahead, it’s very enlightenming to learn what a bunch of > ignorant, Islamist racist/sexist religious thugs can do to a country in 25 > years. >  3. Later, Iraq fired those missles at Kuwait Oil tankers.> > OOOPS! Another lie, Butzins nose is GROWING!!! Turns out the Iraqis fired > FRENCH EXOCET missles, from FRENCH Super Etendard fighters at the tankers, > AND, almost sank the USS Stark in the process, killng many US sailors.

"Forst horeshit" Sok66, In English it’s "First and Horseshit" BUTZIN, didn’t make that statement you you ignorant ass. Perhaps you should get someone who can READ and COMPREHEND english before you reply. And the Reagan era policy was to give him what he wants, just like in Afghanistan and Osama fighting your homeboy Russians that’s where the stingers came from.  Go back and soak your head in your vodka bottle, Boris! > 4. US Navy came over to protect our tankers from misguided missles that > RR sold Iraq, eventually shooting down an Iran passager airliner.> > While they were being attacked by Iranian radicals in gunboats. The > dumb-ass Iranians flew an airliner right into a combat zone & got what > they had coming, sorry. >  Fast forward 20 years, and Iraq is still shooting at US military likely > with shoulder launched  missiles and bullets left over from 1983.> > All provided by your commie buddies, the Soviets. Feel better now, > dickhead?

The shoulder fired misslies came from Dubya daddy, sperm lips. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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Tomorrow we have our first parade for the dead. I am letting my factory off for the afternoon to attend "services." Hispanic kid – outta respect for their families, not out of respect for war. Left a 20 year old widow behind. I am sick to here of what a hero – died with honor speeches.

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http://www.marxist.com/images/saddam_rumsfeld.jpg I thought you ought to know what real commies have to say on the subject of Saddam Marxists have no sympathy with the man who ruled Iraq with a mailed fist, who murdered Communists and trade unionists, who gassed Iranians and Kurds, who massacred Shias and killed political prisoners with excruciating torture. But the words of the British and American imperialists reek of hypocrisy. For years this same man was one of the West’s best friends in the Middle East. Successive British and American governments financed and armed him. The poison gas that he used against the Kurds was sold to him by American companies at a time when his crimes against the Kurdish people were well known. Among the long list of western leaders who visited Baghdad to fawn on Saddam there was one Donald Rumsfeld, sent to Baghdad by President Ronald Reagan, a great admirer of his. Robert Fisk recalled the excellent relations that had existed in the past between Saddam Hussein and the West: "This was the man who was the honour guest of the city of Paris when Mr Chirac was mayor and when the French could see the Jacobins in his bloody regime. This was the man who negotiated with the UN secretary generals Perez de Cuellar and Kofi Annan, who had chatted over coffee to none other than the now US Secretary of Defence, Donald Rumsfeld, who had met Ted Heath and Tony Benn and a host of European statesmen." There was no talk then of the evil crimes of this bloody dictator! The Americans are crowing now, but what was surprising was not the fact that they captured Saddam, but the fact that they took so long to accomplish this feat. Our memories are not so poor that we cannot remember the numerous occasions when the talking busts on CNN solemnly assured us that the US air force had killed Saddam with its tremendous technology and pin-point bombing. This turned out to be just lies and propaganda – just like all the rest of what the lie machines of Washington and London tell us about Iraq. In response to the guerrilla onslaught, the invaders have intensified their military activity, bombing and shelling indiscriminately. In the end it was not high technology but the very old fashioned method of bribery and corruption that was responsible for the arrest of Saddam. It took the American army with all its resources eight months to capture the man they were so desperately hunting. It seems overwhelmingly probable that this was the result of the large sums of money that Washington has been offering to anyone who was ready to betray him. Given the rotten and corrupt nature of the regime and its leading elite, this was not so difficult after all. More than one of the men who were previously unconditional supporters of Saddam while he held absolute power will now be offering their services to Messrs Bremer and Bush. These people have no principles but power and an acute nose for career openings. If the Americans mean what they say, Saddam will be put on trial for war crimes in Iraq. They are preparing a show trial on a Nuremberg scale. The intended purpose is to shock and awe world opinion and the people of Iraq into acquiescing in America’s criminal occupation of Iraq. Will they succeed? Their aim will be to discredit Saddam and therefore provide some excuse for their rape of Iraq. It is clear that he offered no resistance, although he was armed. He may have been taken by surprise and had no time to react, or he may have been so demoralised that he had simply lost the will to fight. There was a kind of relief in his face. It is the relief of a criminal who is finally caught by the police. But Saddam is a very unpredictable man and he can still do the Americans a lot of damage, even when in chains. There are a number of problems in the way of a big show trial, mainly the fact that the prisoner will presumably be allowed to speak. The Americans were obviously assuming that, once in their power, Saddam would simply break down and say whatever they dictated to him. "Talkative and co-operative," the Americans called him after his capture. But the next day they changed their tune and said he was not co-operating. The effect of a public trial in Iraq – if it is ever held – can turn out to be an unpleasant surprise for the Americans. For it could mean that the role of the imperialists can be exposed before the whole world. Saddam Hussein could use such a trial to "spill the beans" on all his past dealings with the imperialists. It depends on Saddam Hussein, but if he decides to go down this road a public trial could backfire on the imperialists. Blair and Straw have quickly added that they wish the trial to be held in Iraq "by the Iraqis". All this is completely hollow because if a trial is held in Iraq it won’t be the Iraqi people who decide. They have no power to elect their own government. They have no say over what happens to the economy, so how can we believe that they will have the last word over the fate of Saddam Hussein. The US occupiers have a stranglehold over the police force, the justice system, etc. The Iraqi judges will simply obey the demands of the US imperialists. What is involved here is not justice but vengeance of a most primitive kind. They want a trial in Iraq, and with this they try to fool world opinion. If the trial were held in some "international court" the US would have less say over the final outcome. If it is held inside Iraq they will be able to control the outcome. Further to that, in Iraq the death sentence can be applied, something which would be more difficult to justify outside Iraq. Thus it is a question of revenge. They want him executed but they don’t want the odium to fall on themselves. They want to wash their hands of this decision, like Pontius Pilate who left it to the "masses" to decide. The hypocrisy of these people is revealed in the statement of the British Foreign Secretary Straw. He says that he is opposed ethically to the death sentence but, however, if the Iraqi courts decide to carry out such a sentence then he would accept it! Thus they would pretend that any such sentence would be the "will" of the "Iraqi people". Thus the whole thing is a farce. Saddam’s interrogators were initially focusing on the former Iraqi president’s ties to the guerrilla war, pressing him for intelligence about impending attacks and the locations of resistance leaders. The interrogators’ immediate hope is that Saddam will supply a wealth of knowledge on the insurgency against the US-led occupation force and its Iraqi allies, officials said. But this line of questioning merely exposes the stupidity of the American intelligence officers, generals and politicians. They try to put the blame on Saddam because they are not prepared to accept that the resistance they are encountering is a popular resistance against a hated foreign invader. The assumption that the capture of Saddam Hussein will solve all the problems is a foolish one. To begin with, this bedraggled, pathetic man, living in a hole in the ground with three guns and a load of dollars was not leading the Iraqi insurgency against the Americans. Throughout this whole affair, US diplomacy and intelligence has been exposed as uniquely incompetent. In the end a US official had to concede that the manner and circumstances of Saddam Hussein’s arrest makes it unlikely he was directing resistance forces in Iraq. The US army found no communications equipment, maps or other evidence of a guerrilla command centre at Saddam’s hiding place. "Given the location and circumstances of his capture, it makes it clear that Saddam was not managing the insurgency, and that he had very little control or influence. That is significant and disturbing because it means the insurgents are not fighting for Saddam, they’re fighting against the United States," said Senator Jay Rockefeller, the vice chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee. US intelligence officials have previously said they believe Saddam was too concerned with survival and staying hidden to provide much more than symbolic leadership. Far from making life easier for the occupying forces, the recent events can make it a lot worse. Before Saddam’s capture, many Iraqis were saying that the one reason they would not join the resistance to US occupation was the fear that if the Americans withdrew Saddam would return to power. Now that fear has been taken away, the armed resistance will almost certainly grow, not diminish. The day after the capture saw three new bomb attacks against coalition forces. There is no reason to suppose this will cease. Despite the capture of Saddam Hussein, the guerrilla war in Iraq will continue, with new bombings, killings and assassinations. The occupation forces are powerless to deal with this precisely because there is not one single operational centre, which they can eliminate by killing or capturing its leaders. They are faced with an enemy with as many heads as a hydra. No sooner have they cut off one than another two or three grow in its place. The bitterness of the conflict will produce atrocities and all kinds of horrors that will provide fertile ground for new acts of terrorism both inside and outside Iraq. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> M.Butzin lied: >> That was the time when hatred of Iran was at an all time high and our >> weapons policy toward Iraq was if he can defeat Iran give him what ever >> he wants. > > Tota;l horeshit, Saddam/Iraq was a Soviet client state and was armed with > Russian, Chinese and also, French weaponry. >  1. Iraq was at war with Iran over a little piece of a river bed, nothing > that WW1 era mustard gas couldn’t cure.> > Provided by your commie friends, the Russkies. > 2. RR and his crew gave/sold missles to Iraq to fight  mean and evil Iran > after they held 90 Americans  becasue the USA dicked around with some > obscure Shaw.> > Well, forst, it was the Shah, who was trying to modernize and

… read more »

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Oh, and to get you tin-foil hats started, here’s an excerpt from the Washingtom Post, July 19, 1992: Roots of the Rebellion In 1980, not long after Soviet forces invaded Afghanistan to prop up a sympathetic leftist government, President Jimmy Carter signed the first —   and for many years the only — presidential "finding" on Afghanistan, the classified directive required by U.S. law to begin covert operations, according to several Western sources familiar with the Carter document. The Carter finding sought to aid Afghan rebels in "harassment" of Soviet occupying forces in Afghanistan through secret supplies of light weapons and other assistance. The finding did not talk of driving Soviet forces out of Afghanistan or defeating them militarily, goals few considered possible at the time, these sources said. The cornerstone of the program was that the United States, through the CIA, would provide funds, some weapons and general supervision of support for the mujaheddin rebels, but day-to-day operations and direct contact with the mujaheddin would be left to the Pakistani Inter-Services Intelligence agency, or ISI. The hands-off U.S. role contrasted with CIA operations in Nicaragua and Angola. Saudi Arabia agreed to match U.S. financial contributions to the mujaheddin and distributed funds directly to ISI. China sold weapons to the CIA and donated a smaller number directly to Pakistan, but the extent of China’s role has been one of the secret war’s most closely guarded secrets. In all, the United States funneled more than $2 billion in guns and money to the mujaheddin during the 1980s, according to U.S. officials. It was the largest covert action program since World War II. In the first years after the Reagan administration inherited the Carter (Hate to bust your bubble about your peace-loving leftist pals. Don’t choke on the truth, nitwit.)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "M.Butzin", the lying leftist moonbat, again attempts to prove facts > without evidence: > The shoulder fired misslies came from Dubya daddy, sperm lips.> > Nice one, genius, I think you mean "missiles". It turns out the first > weapons given to the Mujihaddeen were from…(hold on to your dick, > lefty..oh, I forgot, you do that all the time don’t you?)….JIMMY > CARTER!!!!! YES! That bastion (coward) of non-violence was the first to > give the Mujies stingers, as championed by his NSA, S. Breshinsky. > Shipments of US weapons were delivered to the Afghans in 1979, well over a > year before Reagan took office. > We will now demand that you, along with your moonbat, leftist, > Amerika-hating buddies, specifically list the weapons that > Reagan/Bush/Rummy gave Saddam. You will further explain why they all look > like Russian/Chinese made AKs, T55 & T72 tanks, MIG fighters, etc. Good > luck, & we’ll all enjoy reading the links you provide in order to prove > your (hopeless) case.

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"M.Butzin", the lying leftist moonbat, again attempts to prove facts without evidence: > The shoulder fired misslies came from Dubya daddy, sperm lips.>

Nice one, genius, I think you mean "missiles". It turns out the first weapons given to the Mujihaddeen were from…(hold on to your dick, lefty..oh, I forgot, you do that all the time don’t you?)….JIMMY CARTER!!!!! YES! That bastion (coward) of non-violence was the first to give the Mujies stingers, as championed by his NSA, S. Breshinsky. Shipments of US weapons were delivered to the Afghans in 1979, well over a year before Reagan took office. We will now demand that you, along with your moonbat, leftist, Amerika-hating buddies, specifically list the weapons that Reagan/Bush/Rummy gave Saddam. You will further explain why they all look like Russian/Chinese made AKs, T55 & T72 tanks, MIG fighters, etc. Good luck, & we’ll all enjoy reading the links you provide in order to prove your (hopeless) case.

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Oh! Here’s a sentence from the White Trash Daily July 19, 2005 Early this morning Sgt. Rufus McCoy informed us that SoK66 was taken into custody for molesting the remains of a woman buried last year. His family could not be reached for comment but offered frustration with stringed instruments as the root of his mental illness. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Oh, here’s an excerpt from the Washingtom Post, July 19, 1992:

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*Snipped all your previous babble.* Hey where ya been man, jail? Don’t worry I’m on your side I don’t think you did anything wrong with those kids:) However you shouldn’t take drugs like that again, your headed down the wrong road your mind will fry again and you’ll have to go back into rehab for a longer stay this time. Wife beating is a totally another issue however, you have been going to anger management classes like the judge ordered you to, right? Any way peace man, just remember your not allowed any kind of firearms and you must stay at least 500 yards away from schools. Have a good day and peace out…..

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OKEY DOKEY _ Starting with the money trail at BNL? I already posted links to Iraqgate. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > "M.Butzin", the lying leftist moonbat, again attempts to prove facts without > evidence: > The shoulder fired misslies came from Dubya daddy, sperm lips.> > Nice one, genius, I think you mean "missiles". It turns out the first > weapons given to the Mujihaddeen were from…(hold on to your dick, > lefty..oh, I forgot, you do that all the time don’t you?)….JIMMY > CARTER!!!!! YES! That bastion (coward) of non-violence was the first to give > the Mujies stingers, as championed by his NSA, S. Breshinsky. Shipments of > US weapons were delivered to the Afghans in 1979, well over a year before > Reagan took office. > We will now demand that you, along with your moonbat, leftist, > Amerika-hating buddies, specifically list the weapons that Reagan/Bush/Rummy > gave Saddam. You will further explain why they all look like Russian/Chinese > made AKs, T55 & T72 tanks, MIG fighters, etc. Good luck, & we’ll all enjoy > reading the links you provide in order to prove your (hopeless) case.

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Bye Bye ….

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> *Snipped all your previous babble.* > Hey where ya been man, jail? Don’t worry I’m on your side I don’t think > you did anything wrong with those kids:) However you shouldn’t take drugs > like that again, your headed down the wrong road your mind will fry again > and you’ll have to go back into rehab for a longer stay this time. Wife > beating is a totally another issue however, you have been going to anger > management classes like the judge ordered you to, right? Any way peace > man, just remember your not allowed any kind of firearms and you must stay > at least 500 yards away from schools. Have a good day and peace out…..

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"Snipped all your previous babble." then signed off w/ a  "Bye Bye …." Turns out he was just another snipping queen. Nice post Butzin. SoK66 usually took a mandolin comment to implode w/ a lisping screech  ;-) mvm

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> "Snipped all your previous babble." then signed off w/ a  "Bye Bye …." > Turns out he was just another snipping queen. > Nice post Butzin. SoK66 usually took a mandolin comment to implode w/ a > lisping screech  ;-) mvm

I saw the booking for his gay love boat cruise, I guess he won’t be lurking there.

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Ack ack ack- – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->"Snipped all your previous babble." then signed off w/ a  "Bye Bye …." >Turns out he was just another snipping queen. >Nice post Butzin. SoK66 usually took a mandolin comment to implode w/ a >lisping screech  ;-) mvm > I saw the booking for his gay love boat cruise, I guess he won’t be lurking > there.

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message > "Support Troops Outta Iraq" > "Snipped all your previous babble." then

signed off w/ a  "Bye Bye …." > Turns out he was just another snipping queen. > Nice post Butzin. SoK66 usually took a

mandolin comment to implode w/ a > lisping screech  ;-) mvm > I saw the booking for his gay love boat cruise,

I guess he won’t be lurking > there.

Politicians, diapers and Suk666 – need to be changed for the same reason except in Suk666’s case,  lobotomy required additionally for feces removal and disposal.

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This episode of Lifestyles of the Brain Dead & Flatulent is brought to you by the Mandolin Therapy Foundation. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Politicians, diapers and Suk666 – > need to be changed for the same reason except > in Suk666’s case,  lobotomy required additionally > for feces removal and disposal.

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Can someone point me to a web page that explains how to read a Fender chassis or transformer number date code? Thanks! David

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>Can someone point me to a web page that explains how to read a Fender >chassis or transformer number date code? >Thanks! >David

Shit….  I had a post-it note on the wall for years that sort of outlined Fender’s date code, but it was stuck to something I threw out! The first three numbers (I think 606) can be ignored.  The next number is the year, but it won’t tell you the decade, and the last two numbers are the week of the year. So, 606832 would mean that it was made on the 32nd week of ‘58, ‘68, ‘78…  you should be able to guess which decade. Don’t know about chassis numbers. Pete — There is a TV behind the el Greco. Sadly, the remote has vanished from the material sphere! So it’s stuck on Animal Planet. –Dr. Orpheus

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@corp.supernews.com: > Can someone point me to a web page that explains how to read a Fender > chassis or transformer number date code? > Thanks! > David

http://www.tcguitar.com/articles/gagliano.html This article isn’t very conclusive, but it helped me figure a date using production numbers recently.

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Hi David, Try www.unclespot.com/transformerEIAcodes.html for EIA codes. www.tcguitar.com/pages/fendamp5.htm for dating by serial number. www.unclespot.com/FenderXFMRs.html for Fender output transformer specs. www.superiormusic.com/page195.htm for serial number dat coding. I am assuming that the URLs above are correct and that the sites are still active. Regards, Ed

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Can someone point me to a web page that explains how to read a Fender > chassis or transformer number date code? > Thanks! > David

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> Can someone point me to a web page that explains how to read a > Fender chassis or transformer number date code? > Thanks! > David

David– The serial number on a typical Fender chassis isn’t a date code per se, but it has been established that the year of manufacture can usually be determined from this serial number.  (The tcguitars article that fretwired mentioned is great for that.) As for Fender transformers, you will usually see two numbers. Schumacher made most of these transformers, and the first number beings with 606, which is Schumacher’s EIA code. The next three digits after the "606" are the year and week of manufacture. So 606-534 would be the 34th week of either 1965 or 1975. (Transformers made in the ’70s often have a 2-digit year code: 606-7534.) If you see an EIA code other than "606", it was made by a manufacturer other than Schumacher. (Better Coil & Transformer also made parts for Fender; their EIA code is 831.) Now for the second number code on the transformer: That’s the part number, and in Fender amps, it usually begins with 022 or 125. For example, the Pro Reverb output transformer will usually bear the code "125A6A" or "022848". (The 125- designations were the earlier ones.) Here’s a chart of various Fender transformers: http://www.unclespot.com/FenderXFMRchart.html You can also compare this replacement price list: http://www.vibroworld.com/parts/tech5.html Hope that helps. Regards,   –E

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Here’s a write-up and some chassis codes for you, regards, Christopher DATING FENDER AMPS BY SERIAL NUMBER, PART V by Greg Gagliano Copyright 2002, 20th Century Guitar Magazine They said it couldn’t be done!                     Over 6 years in the making!                                         Finally, what everyone has been waiting for!                                                             How to date Fender amps by serial number!! Okay, I know you’re all just dying to skip ahead to the serial number tables but try to contain your excitement and read through the article first.  I promise the tables will still be there after you finish reading. Besides, no article in the Dating Fender Amps by Serial Number series would be complete without some interesting information, n’est ce pas? FUN FACTS Oddlings – Yet another printing error has surfaced, this time from the FEI (pre-CBS) days.  A 1957 tweed Vibrolux was reported with a tube chart printed with circuit "5E3" (tweed Deluxe)  instead of the correct 5F11 (see photo).  Clearly Fender wasn’t afraid to use incorrect parts when they were in a bind.  We also received a report of a tweed 5G12 Concert. The 5G12 Concert is the earliest version from very late 1959 and early 1960 so the existence of a tweed example, while extremely rare, is certainly plausible since Fender was making lots of tweed amps during the same time period. It

 > Our people have patiently endured your complete lack of empathy, understanding, wisdom and perspective for that which the  > U.S. Cavalry visited upon us after Washington D.C. lied, again and again. We have counted the moons according to our  > tradition. Wounded Knee. 41,763 suns have risen. You are now our concern and preparations are underway.  >  > RF  >  > Massacre: A U.S. apology remains elusive 113 years after scores of unarmed Lakota — many women and children  > — died in a hail of gunfire.  >  > WOUNDED KNEE, S.D. — On crystal-clear nights, when winter winds whistle through the hills and canyons around  >Wounded Knee Creek, the Lakota elders say it is so cold that one can hear the twigs snapping in the frigid air.  >  > They called this time of the year "the Moon of the Popping Trees." It was on such a winter morning on Dec. 29, 1890, that  > the crack of a single rifle brought a day of infamy that still lives in the hearts and  minds of the Lakota people.  >  > After the rifle spoke there was a pause and then the rifles and Hotchkiss guns of the 7th Cavalry opened up on the men,  > women and children camped at Wounded Knee. What followed was utter chaos and  madness. The thirst for the blood  > of the Lakota took away all common sense from the soldiers.  >  > The unarmed Lakota fought back with bare hands. The warriors shouted to  > their wives, their elders and their children, "run for cover," Iynkapo!  > Iyankapo!  >  > Elderly men and women, unable to fight back, stood defiantly and sang  > their death songs before falling to the hail of bullets. The number of  > Lakota people murdered that day is still unknown. The mass grave at  > Wounded Knee holds the bodies of 150 men, women and children. Many other  > victims died of their wounds and of exposure over the next several days.  >  > The Lakota people say that only 50 people out of the original 350  > followers of Sitanka (Big Foot) survived the massacre.  >  > Five days after the slaughter of the innocents an editorial in the  > Aberdeen (S.D.) Saturday Pioneer reflected the popular opinion of the  > wasicu (white people) of that day. It read, "The Pioneer has before  > declared that our only safety depends upon the total extermination of  > the Indians. Having wronged them for centuries, we had better, in order  > to protect our civilization, follow it up by one more wrong and wipe  > these untamed and untamable creatures from the face of the earth."  >  > Ten years after he wrote that editorial calling for genocide against the  > Lakota people, L. Frank Baum wrote that wonderful children’s book, The  > Wizard of Oz.  >  > The federal government tried to forever erase the memory of Wounded  > Knee. The village that sprang up on the site of the massacre was named  > Brennan after a Bureau of Indian Affairs official. But the Lakota people  > never forgot. Although the name "Brennan" appeared on the map, they  > still called it Wounded Knee. In the 1920s, Clive and Agnes Gildersleeve  > built the Wounded Knee Trading Post there to serve the Lakota people.  >  > My father, Tim Giago Sr., worked as a clerk and butcher for the  > Gildersleeves in the 1930s and we lived in one of the cabins at Wounded  > Knee that was later destroyed in the occupation of 1973. As a small boy,  > I recall the warm, summer evenings when the Lakota families sat outdoors  > and spoke softly, in reverent voices about that terrible day in 1890.  >  > Much of what they said was written down by a young man named Hoksila  > Waste (pronounced Hokesheela Washtay) or Good Boy. His Christian name  > was Sid Byrd and he was a member of the Santee Sioux Tribe, a tribe that  > had been relocated and scattered around the state after the so- called  > Indian uprising in Minnesota.  >  > Byrd wrote that it was the white man’s fear of the spiritual revival  > going on among the Lakota in the form of the Ghost Dance that led to the  > assassination of Sitting Bull on Dec. 14, 1890, two weeks before the  > massacre. Fearing further attacks, Sitanka (Big Foot) and his band, a  > group that performed the very last Ghost Dance, went on a five-day march  > to reach the protection of Chief Red Cloud at the Pine Ridge Agency.  >  > The weary band was overtaken and captured at Wounded Knee Creek (Canke  > Opi Wahkpala). Byrd believed, as do all Lakota people, that Big Foot  > died as a martyr for embracing the Ghost Dance "as freely as other men  > embraced their religion."  >  > Byrd wrote in his Lakota version of what happened that day, "Later, some  > of the bodies would be found four to five miles from the scene of the  > slaughter. Soldiers would whoop as they spotted a women fleeing into the  > woods and chase them on horseback. They made sport of it. I heard from  > the elders that the soldiers shouted, ‘Remember the Little Big Horn.’"  >  > The 7th Cavalry, Custer’s old command, spread out across the Pine Ridge  > Reservation hunting for survivors. They rode into the playgrounds of the  > Holy Rosary Indian Mission near Pine Ridge village. Prodded by the  > Jesuit priests, the children were forced to water and feed their horses.  > My grandmother, Sophie Abeyta, was one of those children. She later  > recalled that some of the soldiers, still bloody from the massacre, were  > laughing and joking about their "great victory."  >  > On the 100th anniversary of that infamous day, three Lakota men  > organized a ride that followed the exact trail taken by Big Foot and his  > band. That ride has taken place every year since Dec. 29, 1990. At the  > end of the ride they hold a ceremony they call "wiping away the tears"  > that calls for peace and forgiveness.  >  > Arvol Looking Horse, the Keeper of the Sacred Pipe of the Lakota, says a  > prayer every year on the hallowed grounds at Wounded Knee. He prays that  > the United States will someday apologize to the Lakota for the terrible  > deeds of the 7th Cavalry, and that the 23 soldiers awarded the Medal of  > Honor for the slaughter will have those medals revoked.  >  > What honor is there in the murder of innocent men, women and children?  > You tell me. And now, 113 years after the slaughter at Wounded Knee,  > America has not apologized and the Medal of Honor winners are still  > looked upon as heroes by the United States.  >  > Tim Giago, an Oglala Lakota, is editor and publisher of the weekly  > Lakota Journal. He is author of "The Aboriginal Sin" and "Notes from  > Indian Country" volumes I and II.  >  >  > Doctor Sally Wagner Testifies At Wounded Knee Hearings  >  > Part One  >  >

<<The snipers in the 2002 Washington-area shootings, for instance, used semiautomatic assault rifles that were copycat versions of banned carbines.>> And as I recall, they only fired on each victim once. They could just as easily have used a .223 single-shot target rifle and the results would have probably been exactly the same. John Cowart

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Many Say End of Firearm Ban Changed Little By DEBORAH SONTAG http://www.nytimes.com Despite dire predictions that the streets would be awash in military-style guns, the expiration of the decade-long assault weapons ban last September has not set off a sustained surge in the weapons’ sales, gun makers and sellers say. It also has not caused any noticeable increase in gun crime in the past seven months, according to several metropolitan police departments. The uneventful expiration of the assault weapons ban did not surprise gun owners, nor did it surprise some advocates of gun control. Rather, it underscored what many of them had said all along: that the ban was porous – so porous that assault weapons remained widely available throughout their prohibition. "The whole time that the American public thought there was an assault weapons ban, there never really was one," said Kristen Rand, legislative director of the Violence Policy Center, a gun-control group. What’s more, law enforcement officials say that military-style weapons, which were never used in many gun crimes but did enjoy some vogue in the years before the ban took effect, seem to have gone out of style in criminal circles. "Back in the early 90’s, criminals wanted those Rambo-type weapons they could brandish," said Jim Pasco, executive director of the Fraternal Order of Police. "Today they are much happier with a 9-millimeter handgun they can stick in their belt." When the ban took effect in 1994, it exempted more than 1.5 million assault weapons already in private hands. Over the next 10 years, at least 1.17 million more assault weapons were produced – legitimately – by manufacturers that availed themselves of loopholes in the law, according to an analysis of firearms production data by the Violence Policy Center. Throughout the decade-long ban, for instance, the gun manufacturer DPMS/Panther Arms of Minnesota continued selling assault rifles to civilians by the tens of thousands. In compliance with the ban, the firearms manufacturer "sporterized" the military-style weapons, sawing off bayonet lugs, securing stocks so they were not collapsible and adding muzzle brakes. But the changes did not alter the guns’ essence; they were still semiautomatic rifles with pistol grips. After the ban expired in September, DPMS reintroduced its full-featured weapons to the civilian market and enjoyed a slight spike in sales. That increase was short-lived, however, and predictably so, said Randy E. Luth, the company’s owner. "I never thought the sunset of the ban would be that big a deal," Mr. Luth said. No gun production data are yet available for the seven months since the ban expired. And some gun-control advocates say they don’t trust the self-reporting of gun industry representatives, who may want to play down the volume of their sales to ward off a revival of the ban. Indeed, a replica of the ban is again before the Senate. "In my view, the assault weapons legislation was working," said Senator Dianne Feinstein, Democrat of California, a chief sponsor of the new bill. "It was drying up supply and driving up prices. The number of those guns used in crimes dropped because they were less available." Assault weapons account for a small fraction of gun crimes: about 2 percent, according to most studies, and no more than 8 percent. But they have been used in many high-profile shooting sprees. The snipers in the 2002 Washington-area shootings, for instance, used semiautomatic assault rifles that were copycat versions of banned carbines. Gun crime has plummeted since the early 1990’s. But a study for the National Institute of Justice said that it could not "clearly credit the ban with any of the nation’s recent drop in gun violence." Research for the study in several cities did show a significant decline in the criminal use of assault weapons during the ban. According to the study, however, that decline was offset by the "steady or rising use" of other guns equipped with high-capacity magazines – ammunition-feeding devices that hold more than 10 rounds. While the 1994 ban prohibited the manufacture and sale of such magazines, it did not outlaw an estimated 25 million of them already in circulation, nor did it stop the importation of millions more into the country. Senator Feinstein said she wished she could outlaw the "flood of big clips" from abroad, calling that the "one big loophole" in the ban. But that would require amending the bill, and Republicans like Senator John W. Warner of Virginia and Senator Mike DeWine of Ohio are willing to back it only without amendments, she said. Some gun-control advocates say it is pointless to reintroduce the 1994 ban without amending it to include large magazines and a wider range of guns. They see more promise in enacting or strengthening state or local bans. Seven states – California, Connecticut, Hawaii, Massachusetts, Maryland, New Jersey and New York – already have bans, most based on the federal one. The model ban, gun-control advocates say, is a comprehensive one in California (referred to as "Commiefornia" on some gun enthusiast Web sites). The Fraternal Order of Police has not made a new federal ban a legislative priority, either. Mr. Pasco, the organization’s director, said he could not recall a single "inquiry from the field about the reauthorization of the ban – and we have 330,000 members who are very vocal." "In 1994, I was the principal administration lobbyist on this ban," said Mr. Pasco, who then worked for the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms. "But here we are 10 years later, and these weapons do not appear to pose any more significant threat to law enforcement officers than other weapons of similar caliber and capability." The ban made it illegal to possess or sell a semiautomatic weapon manufactured after September 1994 if the weapon accepted a detachable magazine and contained at least two features from a list that included protruding pistol grips and threaded muzzles. The ban outlawed 19 weapons by name, among them some foreign semiautomatics already banned under the 1989 firearms importation law, which still stands. But gun manufacturers increased production of assault weapons while the ban was being debated. Then, by making minor changes in design, they were able to produce, as they called them, "post-ban" assault weapons that were the functional equivalent of the originals. Colt came out with a "sporterized" version of its popular AR-15 semiautomatic rifle, leaving off some military features that were "meaningless as far as its lethality," said Carlton S. Chen, vice president and general counsel for Colt. "People might think it looks less evil," Mr. Chen said, "but it’s the same weapon. It was a hoax, a Congressional hoax, to ban all these different features." Mr. Pasco of the police organization disagreed. "We knew exactly what we were doing by trying to ban guns with certain features," he said. "While it didn’t affect their function or capability, those features, at that point in time, seemed to make those weapons more attractive to those who wanted to commit crimes." Gun-control advocates say military-style semiautomatics do not belong in civilian hands. "They are weapons of war," Senator Feinstein said, "and you don’t need these assault weapons to hunt." Gun makers, however, say the weapons do have sporting uses, in hunting and in target shooting. "People buy these rifles because they’re fun to shoot and they perform well," Mr. Luth of DPMS said. "They also like them because you can jazz them up like you can your car. You can custom-paint them, put on a multitude of handguards or buttstocks." Some collectors simply admire certain guns. Charles Cuzalina, a gun dealer in Oklahoma who specializes in banned weapons, is taken with the Colt AR-15. "I just like the look of the weapon," Mr. Cuzalina said. "When I bought my first, I went out on the farm shooting at a pie plate, and I realized how accurate it makes you. You think you’re the world’s best shot." Mark Westrom, owner of ArmaLite Inc., a gun maker in Illinois, said prey hunters and target shooters did not miss bayonet lugs and other features that disappeared with the post-ban rifles. Collectors looking for an exact civilian replica of a military rifle, however, consider the removal of a bayonet lug "a matter of design defacement," Mr. Westrom said. Several manufacturers are offering factory conversions or selling kits so gun owners can retrofit their post-ban weapons. They are also increasing their production of pre-ban weapons and decreasing production of post-ban weapons. Many gun store owners say that sales of assault weapons spiked briefly in September and October. Gun dealers sought to capitalize on the ban’s sunset and, during the presidential campaign, to raise the specter of a tougher ban if John Kerry won. "We view this time as a ‘pause’ and urge you to take advantage of the opportunity to exercise your Second Amendment rights," Tapco, a shooting and military gear company, said on its Web site last fall. "Anti-gun politicians learned much over the past 10 years. They will surely not leave as many loopholes in future legislation." After President Bush was re-elected and the novelty of the ban’s expiration waned, sales leveled off at many gun shops. But Mike Mathews, the owner of Gunworld in Del City, Okla., said sales had been holding steady at a higher level. Norm Giguere of Norm’s Gun & Ammo in Biddeford, Me., on the other hand, said that he had not sold any military-style semiautomatic rifles since right after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks, and that the gun business in general was "going down the tubes." Mr. Luth of DPMS, however, said that his sales had been increasing for years, to the law enforcement community, the civilian market and an unexpected new clientele. "We’ve picked up new customers with the troops returning from Iraq," he said, "who had never shot an AR-15 before and now … read more »

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Hey – why didn’t you tell me it was a comedy? I never laughed so much at a serious documentary… that Moore guy is hilarious! Well, he did change my mind on gun control – after pointing out that Canada has as many guns as the USA but 1/10 the gun crimes per capita, I guess it isn’t guns that are the problem… He didn’t say what was… I think he still thinks it’s guns but he disproved himself… weird… Maybe if you got rid of every single gun there was… ya… that’s it! And he forgot to mention the x4 gun crimes in South America… SO now – I don’t know the reason for crime in America… does anyone? OK – back to guitar amps and chili…

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> Well, he did change my mind on gun control – after pointing out that > Canada has > as many guns as the USA but 1/10 the gun crimes per capita, I guess it > isn’t > guns that are the problem… > He didn’t say what was… I think he still thinks it’s guns but he > disproved > himself… weird…

Did you watch the same Bowling for Columbine that I did?  His conclusion was that fear drives Americans to commit more gun crimes.  What the average gun-owning American has to fear is a question that’s up for debate. —-M.B.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Well, he did change my mind on gun control – after pointing out that > Canada has > as many guns as the USA but 1/10 the gun crimes per capita, I guess it > isn’t > guns that are the problem… > He didn’t say what was… I think he still thinks it’s guns but he > disproved > himself… weird… > Did you watch the same Bowling for Columbine that I did?  His conclusion was > that fear drives Americans to commit more gun crimes.  What the average > gun-owning American has to fear is a question that’s up for debate.

I think that Mr. Moore posited that due to being brought up in a culture of fear (ie fear the Commies, fear the black man, fear people who wear turbans) Americans are more apt to reach for a gun to solve a conflict than other people. Thus, more deaths by guns. I think the OP musta sniffed some glue before he watched the movie. Bob- not that Bob! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> —-M.B.

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Bobsyeruncle > I think that Mr. Moore posited that due to being brought up in a > culture of fear (ie fear the Commies, fear the black man, fear people > who wear turbans) Americans are more apt to reach for a gun to solve a > conflict than other people. Thus, more deaths by guns.

Did he present a demographic of the shooters and victims?

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Well, he did change my mind on gun control – after pointing out that > Canada has > as many guns as the USA but 1/10 the gun crimes per capita, I guess it > isn’t > guns that are the problem… > He didn’t say what was… I think he still thinks it’s guns but he > disproved > himself… weird… >Did you watch the same Bowling for Columbine that I did?

Ya, but I watched it all… > His conclusion was >that fear drives Americans to commit more gun crimes.  What the average >gun-owning American has to fear is a question that’s up for debate. >—-M.B.

His conclusion was that (Charlton Heston and) guns were the problem… did you miss the part about Charlie?? Or do you think America fears Heston??

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> Bobsyeruncle > I think that Mr. Moore posited that due to being brought up in a > culture of fear (ie fear the Commies, fear the black man, fear people > who wear turbans) Americans are more apt to reach for a gun to solve a > conflict than other people. Thus, more deaths by guns. > Did he present a demographic of the shooters and victims?

Lol- no, he didn’t. The point he was trying to make may have been valid, but it was made in a rather convoluted way. Bob

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> Well, he did change my mind on gun control – after pointing out that >> Canada has >> as many guns as the USA but 1/10 the gun crimes per capita, I guess it >> isn’t >> guns that are the problem… >> He didn’t say what was… I think he still thinks it’s guns but he >> disproved >> himself… weird… >Did you watch the same Bowling for Columbine that I did? > Ya, but I watched it all… > His conclusion was >that fear drives Americans to commit more gun crimes.  What the average >gun-owning American has to fear is a question that’s up for debate. >—-M.B. > His conclusion was that (Charlton Heston and) guns were the problem… did you > miss the part about Charlie?? Or do you think America fears Heston??

Someone should shoot that lunatic, IMHO. Bob

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Well, he did change my mind on gun control – after pointing out that > Canada has > as many guns as the USA but 1/10 the gun crimes per capita, I guess it > isn’t > guns that are the problem… > He didn’t say what was… I think he still thinks it’s guns but he > disproved > himself… weird… > Did you watch the same Bowling for Columbine that I did? His conclusion was > that fear drives Americans to commit more gun crimes. What the average > gun-owning American has to fear is a question that’s up

for debate. I thought his conclusion was that fear of freedom and personal responsibility drives some Americans to create propaganda films that seek to distort reality in a vain attempt to socialize America.  But maybe I missed his point.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > Well, he did change my mind on gun control – after >pointing out that > > Canada has > > as many guns as the USA but 1/10 the gun crimes per >capita, I guess it > > isn’t > > guns that are the problem… > > He didn’t say what was… I think he still thinks it’s >guns but he > > disproved > > himself… weird… > Did you watch the same Bowling for Columbine that I did? >His conclusion was > that fear drives Americans to commit more gun crimes. >What the average > gun-owning American has to fear is a question that’s up >for debate. >I thought his conclusion was that fear of freedom and >personal responsibility drives some Americans to create >propaganda films that seek to distort reality in a vain >attempt to socialize America.  But maybe I missed his point.

Close, but you left out "cash in big time while doing so" Claude

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> Close, but you left out "cash in big time while doing so" > Claude

Yeah, it’s hilarious how Moore has held onto his awww-shucks working stiff image with the rumpled clothes and baseball cap and three-day stubble, when in fact he lives in a luxury apartment in a swanky part of NYC, travels first class and eats at five-star restaurants, clearly plenty of the latter. And let’s not forget how he tried to discourage some of his employees from joining a union, a real hero of the working class.

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>I thought his conclusion was that fear of freedom and >personal responsibility drives some Americans to create >propaganda films that seek to distort reality in a vain >attempt to socialize America.  But maybe I missed his point.

Very well said.  Michael Moore is a blight, and another nail in the coffin of jounalism’s credibility.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > Well, he did change my mind on gun control – after > pointing out that > > Canada has > > as many guns as the USA but 1/10 the gun crimes per > capita, I guess it > > isn’t > > guns that are the problem… > > He didn’t say what was… I think he still thinks it’s > guns but he > > disproved > > himself… weird… > Did you watch the same Bowling for Columbine that I did? > His conclusion was > that fear drives Americans to commit more gun crimes. > What the average > gun-owning American has to fear is a question that’s up > for debate. > I thought his conclusion was that fear of freedom and > personal responsibility drives some Americans to create > propaganda films that seek to distort reality in a vain > attempt to socialize America.  But maybe I missed his point.

Feedom of speech, Conan- ya gotta love it. Bob

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> > Well, he did change my mind on gun control – after >pointing out that >> > Canada has >> > as many guns as the USA but 1/10 the gun crimes per >capita, I guess it >> > isn’t >> > guns that are the problem… >> > He didn’t say what was… I think he still thinks it’s >guns but he >> > disproved >> > himself… weird… >> Did you watch the same Bowling for Columbine that I did? >His conclusion was >> that fear drives Americans to commit more gun crimes. >What the average >> gun-owning American has to fear is a question that’s up >for debate. >I thought his conclusion was that fear of freedom and >personal responsibility drives some Americans to create >propaganda films that seek to distort reality in a vain >attempt to socialize America.  But maybe I missed his point. > Close, but you left out "cash in big time while doing so" > Claude

Figures that a staunch conservative would have something to say about a liberal cashing in- typical. Only conservatives are allowed to cash in, I guess. Bob

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Close, but you left out "cash in big time while doing so" > Claude > Yeah, it’s hilarious how Moore has held onto his awww-shucks working stiff > image with the rumpled clothes and baseball cap and three-day stubble, when > in fact he lives in a luxury apartment in a swanky part of NYC, travels > first class and eats at five-star restaurants, clearly plenty of the latter. > And let’s not forget how he tried to discourage some of his employees from > joining a union, a real hero of the working class.

How much worse is that than Duhbya adopting a reckless Texan good ole boy demeanour and parlaying that into a second term in the White House? Moore isn’t doing anything that you right whingers wouldn’t do if you hadn’t thought of it first. Bob

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> >I thought his conclusion was that fear of freedom and >personal responsibility drives some Americans to create >propaganda films that seek to distort reality in a vain >attempt to socialize America.  But maybe I missed his point. > Very well said.  Michael Moore is a blight, and another nail in the > coffin of jounalism’s credibility.

Since when do you pay to watch a film created by a journalist? Bob

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> Hey – why didn’t you tell me it was a comedy? I never laughed so much at a > serious documentary… that Moore guy is hilarious!

Yeah, Gutter Ball, is his middle name. Yep, it’s those NRA Gun Nuts, and the 2nd Amendment, that’s the problem. That’s why there is all this crime in the streets, and AK-47’s on every street corner too!!!!! Making money off the village idiots in every town USA. Regards, Rich Koerner, Time Electronics. http://www.timeelect.com Specialists in Live Sound FOH Engineering,        Music & Studio Production, Vintage Instruments, and Tube Amplifiers

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>> Hey – why didn’t you tell me it was a comedy? I never laughed so much at a > serious documentary… that Moore guy is hilarious!

What was that saying? "To the intellectual, life is a comedy. To the sensitive, life is a tragedy." (or some such) So maybe a tragicomedy? No doubt that Columbine was a tragedy. Some ironies related to it tho. > Yeah, Gutter Ball, is his middle name. Yep, it’s those NRA Gun Nuts, and > the 2nd Amendment, that’s the problem. That’s why there is all this > crime in the streets, and AK-47’s on every street corner too!!!!! Yep,

Well, I really don’t think Moore intends for everyone to just believe everything he says. He raises questions that we should all at least think about. My impression (but I’m just a Canuck, so as someone said here, my opinion will likely get shitcanned anyway) is that the "liberals" in many of these free-for-alls seem to allow for more indpendent thinking whereas the "conservatives" seem to rely/demand everyone believe their statements. Maybe that is just my Canadian liberal viewpoint. OTOH, I have also thought of myself as a civil libertarian. I’m confused? but I do think! FWIW, I thought it was a bit shabby the way Moore misrepresented himself to get into Charlton Heston’s home only to manouver/blind-side him with unflattering allegations about firearms and trying to link them (how?) to Columbine. It was sad to see an old man walking away, in his own home! I suppose he is a public persona, but that was his own home. Otherwise, OK. Guns for self-preservation? OK. Trigger happy gunslingers. Not OK. BTW, I was on a business trip in Colorado years ago, when they were discussing what were being called their "John Wayne law" (homeowner’s right to blow away anyone trespassing). One of the guys we worked with said "hell, yeah, if I hear a noise downstairs, I’m going down shooting!" My question to him was: "…and what if it was your wife getting a glass of milk from the ‘fridge?" I thought it was a good question. He didn’t have an answer, but I could see that he was at least thinking about it. As a side note, I used to be reasonable good at small caliber target shooting. Not quite as good at big bore (at 1000 yards?). If I had to do it over again, I think I would be interested in archery. You’re one up on me there. viz. hunting (not vegetables), I think bow-hunting is awesome. > Making money off the village idiots in every town USA.

Well, IMO, Bill Gates made a pile selling lousy computer software to people who didn’t know much about computers. He did undercut the costs of good/serious software and "popularized" the idea of a computer on every desk. Was that good? (for him, yes) or bad? (for us, maybe) In life, there are no "control groups" to compare with every event/decision. Would someone else have delivered better software at only slightly higher cost? Who knows? Microsoft have convinced people it’s normal to reboot many times a day. Pisses off people that build real computer systems. Damn! You guys managed to drag me into your "political" brawls again! …where are those guitars and basses…? Oh, the young local guitar slinger that is helping me (re)learn guitar is working out quite well. I’m having a lot of fun, and learning a lot. — Juhan Leemet Logicognosis, Inc.

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So with all the recent demand for Joe Bardens and the prices they were selling for on ebay I just couldn’t stand it.  I wasn’t using my Bardens (or for that matter my Tele) so I stuck the ol’ Bardens up on ebay to see what would happen.  The result was good, many bids and they sold for over $400. I really hated to sell them simply because they are unique and excellent pickups and will probably be rare in the future, but I wasn’t using them and I’ve been eyeing some new "toys" lately.  That’s pretty much it for the "on topic" part of this post. So I decided that it had been long enough since I’d owned a *really nice* 1911 (that’s a pistol for you folks who don’t speak gun) and I headed down to the gun show to see what I could see.  Picked up the exact gun I was wanting for a good price http://home1.gte.net/res0jmoj/Kimber.jpg I was also hoping to find a deal on a USA-made M9 bayonet for an M16, but the only one I saw was a hundred bucks and I was feeling cheap after buying the pistol.  But I did find a new in the box Colt M8A1 genuine US issue bayonet for an M16, which is almost as cool.  For $35 I couldn’t pass up a brand new one, so I picked that up too. http://home1.gte.net/res0jmoj/AR_bayonet.jpg  My wife couldn’t understand why I wanted this.  What’s wrong with her, anyway? Looks like I’ve hit my annual gun buying limit just before the year was up (limited to one gun per quarter).  Here’s the 2004 additions to the family. http://home1.gte.net/res0jmoj/guns.jpg  That’s a Bushmaster XM15E2, a Kimber Pro CDP II, a Sig Sauer P226 in .357Sig and a Taurus Ultralite Titanium .38Spl.

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Nice gun,  I’ve got a brother with one of those. And I would like to buy your Sig!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> So with all the recent demand for Joe Bardens and the prices they were > selling for on ebay I just couldn’t stand it.  I wasn’t using my Bardens (or > for that matter my Tele) so I stuck the ol’ Bardens up on ebay to see what > would happen.  The result was good, many bids and they sold for over $400. > I really hated to sell them simply because they are unique and excellent > pickups and will probably be rare in the future, but I wasn’t using them and > I’ve been eyeing some new "toys" lately.  That’s pretty much it for the "on > topic" part of this post. > So I decided that it had been long enough since I’d owned a *really nice* > 1911 (that’s a pistol for you folks who don’t speak gun) and I headed down > to the gun show to see what I could see.  Picked up the exact gun I was > wanting for a good price http://home1.gte.net/res0jmoj/Kimber.jpg > I was also hoping to find a deal on a USA-made M9 bayonet for an M16, but > the only one I saw was a hundred bucks and I was feeling cheap after buying > the pistol.  But I did find a new in the box Colt M8A1 genuine US issue > bayonet for an M16, which is almost as cool.  For $35 I couldn’t pass up a > brand new one, so I picked that up too. > http://home1.gte.net/res0jmoj/AR_bayonet.jpg  My wife couldn’t understand > why I wanted this.  What’s wrong with her, anyway? > Looks like I’ve hit my annual gun buying limit just before the year was up > (limited to one gun per quarter).  Here’s the 2004 additions to the family. > http://home1.gte.net/res0jmoj/guns.jpg  That’s a Bushmaster XM15E2, a Kimber > Pro CDP II, a Sig Sauer P226 in .357Sig and a Taurus Ultralite Titanium > .38Spl.

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… > So I decided that it had been long enough since I’d owned a *really nice* > 1911 (that’s a pistol for you folks who don’t speak gun) and I headed down > to the gun show to see what I could see.  Picked up the exact gun I was > wanting for a good price http://home1.gte.net/res0jmoj/Kimber.jpg

Congrats.  I love it when something suddenly shoots up in price.  At least, when I own it. 8^) So, mind if I ask about the price range for the Kimber?

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>> So I decided that it had been long enough since I’d owned a *really nice* > 1911 (that’s a pistol for you folks who don’t speak gun) and I headed > down > to the gun show to see what I could see.  Picked up the exact gun I was > wanting for a good price http://home1.gte.net/res0jmoj/Kimber.jpg > Congrats.  I love it when something suddenly > shoots up in price.  At least, when I own it. > 8^)

Same here.  It’s nice to be on the appreciation end of things every now and then. > So, mind if I ask about the price range for > the Kimber?

I paid $750 out the door for the Kimber.  The "retail" price is something in the area of $1100 but in reality the "street" price in most gun shops is more like $900 or so.  This gun was bought from an individual who is a gun dealer but this was one of his personal guns so technically it was not "new".  I think he just wanted the cash because he had it marked at $850 and it didn’t take too much effort to get him down to $750.

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> Nice gun,  I’ve got a brother with one of those. > And I would like to buy your Sig!

You can’t be Sig in my opinion.  Sig is buying back used guns from police departments and refurbishing them and then selling them through dealers.  So if you’re in the market for a Sig you can get a used, but under warranty. certified preowned gun for a good bit less than the new price.  I traded even for that P226 several months ago.  I had a new P239 and I traded it for that new P226 and we were both happy. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> So with all the recent demand for Joe Bardens and the prices they were > selling for on ebay I just couldn’t stand it.  I wasn’t using my Bardens > (or > for that matter my Tele) so I stuck the ol’ Bardens up on ebay to see > what > would happen.  The result was good, many bids and they sold for over > $400. > I really hated to sell them simply because they are unique and excellent > pickups and will probably be rare in the future, but I wasn’t using them > and > I’ve been eyeing some new "toys" lately.  That’s pretty much it for the > "on > topic" part of this post. > So I decided that it had been long enough since I’d owned a *really nice* > 1911 (that’s a pistol for you folks who don’t speak gun) and I headed > down > to the gun show to see what I could see.  Picked up the exact gun I was > wanting for a good price http://home1.gte.net/res0jmoj/Kimber.jpg > I was also hoping to find a deal on a USA-made M9 bayonet for an M16, but > the only one I saw was a hundred bucks and I was feeling cheap after > buying > the pistol.  But I did find a new in the box Colt M8A1 genuine US issue > bayonet for an M16, which is almost as cool.  For $35 I couldn’t pass up > a > brand new one, so I picked that up too. > http://home1.gte.net/res0jmoj/AR_bayonet.jpg  My wife couldn’t understand > why I wanted this.  What’s wrong with her, anyway? > Looks like I’ve hit my annual gun buying limit just before the year was > up > (limited to one gun per quarter).  Here’s the 2004 additions to the > family. > http://home1.gte.net/res0jmoj/guns.jpg  That’s a Bushmaster XM15E2, a > Kimber > Pro CDP II, a Sig Sauer P226 in .357Sig and a Taurus Ultralite Titanium > .38Spl.

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> I was also hoping to find a deal on a USA-made M9 bayonet for an M16, but > the only one I saw was a hundred bucks and I was feeling cheap after buying > the pistol.

The M9s are junk anyway (unless they’ve changed the steel in last ten years).  That older one is a better blade, worth more than what it sold for, too.

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> > I was also hoping to find a deal on a USA-made M9

bayonet for an M16, but > the only one I saw was a hundred bucks and I was feeling cheap after buying > the pistol. > The M9s are junk anyway (unless they’ve changed > the steel in last ten years).  That older one is > a better blade, worth more than what it sold for, > too.

Really?  I know that the M9 was made in limited quantities by Buck and then my another company.  I found a Buck M9 for $100 and I’ve seen "made in Korea" versions on ebay for less.  But I figured that a Colt M8A1 still in the plastic with a sheath was well worth $35.  You can’t buy a decent hunting knife for anywhere near $35 and that bayonet is as good as any heavy hunting knife.

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Nice pistols like the Sig and Kimber, you should get them greased up and go shoot an IDPA match or two. They don’t seem to have so many hot-rods in the pack as the others.

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> Nice pistols like the Sig and Kimber, you should get them greased up > and go shoot an IDPA match or two. They don’t seem to have so many > hot-rods in the pack as the others.

I’m a fairly good shot compared to your average Joe.  I’m definitely not good enough to compete though.  To get there I’d need the time and ammo budget to practice a lot more than I shoot right now.  Although I would like to do that someday, some of those courses look fun and very challenging. Of course, you know that would mean I’d have to go out and buy more guns.  The Sig is a duty gun and the Kimber is for concealed carry.  For IDPA I’d want a 1911 with all the fancy "race gun" features.  Which means lotsa money.  Just what I need, another expensive hobby.  I’m already resisting the urge to try golf (again) because as much as I like it I’m terrible and it’s expensive and time consuming excuse to hang out with the guys and drink beer.

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In article <R4nvd.29357$fC4.20249 @newssvr11.news.prodigy.com>, > Really?  I know that the M9 was made in limited quantities > by Buck and then my another company.  I found a Buck M9 for > $100 and I’ve seen "made in Korea" versions on ebay for > less.  But I figured that a Colt M8A1 still in the plastic > with a sheath was well worth $35.  You can’t buy a decent > hunting knife for anywhere near $35 and that bayonet is as > good as any heavy hunting knife.

Buck sounds right.  IMHO the M9s were way too brittle, I saw many instances where guys snapped the tips off em, using them to cut wire.  The sheath and blade were designed to latch together and cut wire.  GIs may have exceeded specs when they used em on barbed wire and concertina, but if that’s the case, somebody really f*cked up in the design (IOW, things that are designed for GI use should be "GI Proofed", as much as possible).   I witnessed one fail at the usual point (about 1.5" of tip, from the hole where the sheath stud inserts thru blade) when cutting some typical "farm-grade" barbed wire that was severely rusted.  BTW, this function was probably inspired by the AK bayonet.  I don’t know how well theirs worked, but it was there first…along with the single-bevel edge on the blade, that was very difficult to resharpen in the field with a stone. Oh, and the six or so small diameter rivets on the belt hanger tended to pull thru after a few months of wear, causing the sheath and bayonet to separate from your belt, inevitably at nite when you were doing something that prevented you from noticing the bayonet was gone ("That’s $110, GI"). The older sheaths, while made of cotton webbing that could eventually rot, had substantial rivets that weren’t about to pull thru in normal use.

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>Of course, you know that would mean I’d have to go out and >buy more guns.  The Sig is a duty gun and the Kimber is for >concealed carry.  

        Both of which have their own IDPA classes. There is also a Stock Service Revolver (SSR) class that is popular. > For IDPA I’d want a 1911 with all the fancy "race gun" features.

        Wrong group; that’s IPSC, with the pro dudes and super-tweaked race machines. IDPA is stock service pistol (SSP), service revolver (SSR), Enhanced Service Pistol (ESP)for SA like Kimber 1911s, and Custom (CDP) for the tweakers. Your Sig is ESP, the Kimber either ESP or CDP.         I have only attended one near here in NC, but it was mostly regular people with fairly regular hardware.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Of course, you know that would mean I’d have to go out and >buy more guns.  The Sig is a duty gun and the Kimber is for >concealed carry. > Both of which have their own IDPA classes. There is also a > Stock Service Revolver (SSR) class that is popular. > For IDPA I’d want a 1911 with all the fancy "race gun" features. > Wrong group; that’s IPSC, with the pro dudes and super-tweaked > race machines. IDPA is stock service pistol (SSP), service revolver > (SSR), Enhanced Service Pistol (ESP)for SA like Kimber 1911s, and > Custom (CDP) for the tweakers. Your Sig is ESP, the Kimber either ESP > or CDP. > I have only attended one near here in NC, but it was mostly > regular people with fairly regular hardware.

OK, that sounds fun.  It would probably reveal how much work I need to be competitive, but at least I wouldn’t be shooting against those IPSC-type guys.  I see a large ammo bill in my future, might be time to start reloading.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Really?  I know that the M9 was made in limited quantities > by Buck and then my another company.  I found a Buck M9 for > $100 and I’ve seen "made in Korea" versions on ebay for > less.  But I figured that a Colt M8A1 still in the plastic > with a sheath was well worth $35.  You can’t buy a decent > hunting knife for anywhere near $35 and that bayonet is as > good as any heavy hunting knife. > Buck sounds right.  IMHO the M9s were way too > brittle, I saw many instances where guys snapped > the tips off em, using them to cut wire.  The > sheath and blade were designed to latch together > and cut wire.  GIs may have exceeded specs when > they used em on barbed wire and concertina, but > if that’s the case, somebody really f*cked up in > the design (IOW, things that are designed for GI > use should be "GI Proofed", as much as possible). > I witnessed one fail at the usual point (about > 1.5" of tip, from the hole where the sheath stud > inserts thru blade) when cutting some typical > "farm-grade" barbed wire that was severely > rusted.

Hmmm…that wire cutter feature was one of the reasons I wanted that bayonet, seemed like a useful feature.  But not if it’s going to be problematic.  I just always assumed that anything GI issue would be more than tough enough for my use. > BTW, this function was probably inspired > by the AK bayonet.  I don’t know how well theirs > worked, but it was there first…along with the > single-bevel edge on the blade, that was very > difficult to resharpen in the field with a stone.

Yeah, I figure anything on an AK will probably work forever and can be had for pennies.  They’re cheap but indestructible. > Oh, and the six or so small diameter rivets on > the belt hanger tended to pull thru after a few > months of wear, causing the sheath and bayonet to > separate from your belt, inevitably at nite when > you were doing something that prevented you from > noticing the bayonet was gone ("That’s $110, > GI"). The older sheaths, while made of cotton > webbing that could eventually rot, had > substantial rivets that weren’t about to pull > thru in normal use.

I can tell that the M8A1 sheath is tough.  Looks like the final version of the Vietnam era bayonets right before the M9, the sheath is plastic (not metal like the old ones) and the webbing is very sturdy.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > Really?  I know that the M9 was made in limited >quantities > > by Buck and then my another company.  I found a Buck M9 >for > > $100 and I’ve seen "made in Korea" versions on ebay for > > less.  But I figured that a Colt M8A1 still in the >plastic > > with a sheath was well worth $35.  You can’t buy a >decent > > hunting knife for anywhere near $35 and that bayonet is >as > > good as any heavy hunting knife. > Buck sounds right.  IMHO the M9s were way too > brittle, I saw many instances where guys snapped > the tips off em, using them to cut wire.  The > sheath and blade were designed to latch together > and cut wire.  GIs may have exceeded specs when > they used em on barbed wire and concertina, but > if that’s the case, somebody really f*cked up in > the design (IOW, things that are designed for GI > use should be "GI Proofed", as much as possible). > I witnessed one fail at the usual point (about > 1.5" of tip, from the hole where the sheath stud > inserts thru blade) when cutting some typical > "farm-grade" barbed wire that was severely > rusted. >Hmmm…that wire cutter feature was one of the reasons I >wanted that bayonet, seemed like a useful feature.  But not >if it’s going to be problematic.  I just always assumed that >anything GI issue would be more than tough enough for my >use. > BTW, this function was probably inspired > by the AK bayonet.  I don’t know how well theirs > worked, but it was there first…along with the > single-bevel edge on the blade, that was very > difficult to resharpen in the field with a stone. >Yeah, I figure anything on an AK will probably work forever >and can be had for pennies.  They’re cheap but >indestructible.

I was inside my MAK90 the other day … basically an AK with a different exterior setup … and was cleaning it out and sprucing it up.  I starting looking at the entire firing mechanism set-up … looks very easy to convert to a full automatic.  I’m not saying I would … but it appears to be very easy. I just have to figure out what modifications it would take to make it select-fire. Lostpup198 "We will all be better citizens when voting records of our Congressmen are followed as carefully as scores of pro-football games." — Lou Erickson

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> >Yeah, I figure anything on an AK will probably work forever >and can be had for pennies.  They’re cheap but >indestructible. > I was inside my MAK90 the other day … basically an AK with a different > exterior setup … and was cleaning it out and sprucing it up.  I starting > looking at the entire firing mechanism set-up … looks

very easy to convert to > a full automatic.  I’m not saying I would … but it

appears to be very easy. > I just have to figure out what modifications it would take to make it > select-fire.

Here’s a book with detailed instructions for $11.95 http://www.firingpin.com/fullauto3.htm It’s very easy to convert almost any any semi-auto military rifle to full auto.  Usually it’s just a sear and trigger replacement.  However, the full auto sear is the NFA Class III part (the sear is considered a "machine gun" even though it’s just a ten cent piece of metal) and it is a felony for a civilian to convert or own a converted full auto weapon or auto sear. For civilians the only legal full auto weapon or auto sear is one manufactured *and registered* before 5/19/86.  All full auto weapons (or parts) must be registered with the BATFE.  Some states allow civilian ownership of machine guns (Texas does) as long as you (a) have a letter of reference permitting the gun from the chief law enforcement officer in your county and (b) you pay the BATFE $200 tax stamp.  Of couse, since the supply of registered machine guns and parts is a finite number the demand is outrageous. The auto sear for your MAK90 would cost a LEO with department letterhead about $1.00, or it would cost a civilian about $10,000.  Had I known this about 5-10 years ago I would have bought every full auto rifle I could find because an M16 that sold for $3000 in 1994 is selling for $16,000 today.  That’s a good ROI.

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… > Yeah, I figure anything on an AK will probably work forever > and can be had for pennies.  They’re cheap but > indestructible.

While my Chinese paratrooper SKS is pretty indestructible, I think now that prices are coming back down, I’m going to get an AK.  The SKS is OK, but the AKs are an improvement.  And clips are cheaper. 8^)

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>> Yeah, I figure anything on an AK will probably work forever > and can be had for pennies.  They’re cheap but > indestructible. > While my Chinese paratrooper SKS is pretty > indestructible, I think now that prices > are coming back down, I’m going to get an > AK.  The SKS is OK, but the AKs are an > improvement.  And clips are cheaper. 8^)

The Big Town (Mesquite) gun show is full of inexpensive AK’s and AK parts. But I know there are a lot of AK variants of dubious quality, so I guess you have to know what you’re looking for so as not to end up with a junk gun. Still, I’ve considered picking up an AK a few times simply because the cheap ones are so damn cheap.

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>  Had I known this about 5-10 years > ago I would have bought every full auto rifle I could find > because an M16 that sold for $3000 in 1994 is selling for > $16,000 today.  That’s a good ROI.

Is this still true (prebans staying high $$)??

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> >  Had I known this about 5-10 years > ago I would have bought every full auto rifle I could find > because an M16 that sold for $3000 in 1994 is selling for > $16,000 today.  That’s a good ROI. > Is this still true (prebans staying high $$)??

No.  I was talking about full auto NFA registered machine guns, not pre-ban "assault rifles".  However, after the AWB sunset there is no more "pre-ban" and the prices dropped.  I just picked up a "pre-ban" (meaning it has the bayo lug, collapsible stock and flash hider) Bushmaster AR15 brand new for $799.  If the ban was still in effect and that had been a pre-1994 gun it would have sold for well over $1K, but now they’re all cheap.  I’m glad I didn’t buy any "pre-ban" rifles during the ban period.  The full auto machine guns were unaffected by the ban and are still outrageously priced.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >  Had I known this about 5-10 years > > ago I would have bought every full auto rifle I could >find > > because an M16 that sold for $3000 in 1994 is selling >for > > $16,000 today.  That’s a good ROI. > Is this still true (prebans staying high $$)?? >No.  I was talking about full auto NFA registered machine >guns, not pre-ban "assault rifles".  However, after the AWB >sunset there is no more "pre-ban" and the prices dropped.  I >just picked up a "pre-ban" (meaning it has the bayo lug, >collapsible stock and flash hider) Bushmaster AR15 brand new >for $799.  If the ban was still in effect and that had been >a pre-1994 gun it would have sold for well over $1K, but now >they’re all cheap.  I’m glad I didn’t buy any "pre-ban" >rifles during the ban period.  The full auto machine guns >were unaffected by the ban and are still outrageously >priced.

I guess that if you can afford to feed a full-auto you can afford the weapon… Claude

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> >  Had I known this about 5-10 years >> > ago I would have bought every full auto rifle I could >> > find because an M16 that sold for $3000 in 1994 is >> > selling for $16,000 today.  That’s a good ROI. >> Is this still true (prebans staying high $$)?? >No.  I was talking about full auto NFA registered machine >guns, not pre-ban "assault rifles".  However, after the AWB >sunset there is no more "pre-ban" and the prices dropped. I >just picked up a "pre-ban" (meaning it has the bayo lug, >collapsible stock and flash hider) Bushmaster AR15 brand new >for $799.  If the ban was still in effect and that had been >a pre-1994 gun it would have sold for well over $1K, but now >they’re all cheap.  I’m glad I didn’t buy any "pre-ban" >rifles during the ban period.  The full auto machine guns >were unaffected by the ban and are still outrageously >priced. > I guess that if you can afford to feed a full-auto > you can afford the weapon…

This is true.  You can run through 1000 rounds pretty quickly.  And barrels, if you like to rock and roll on full auto, the M16 is *not* a "machine gun", it’s a full auto rifle.  Rifle barrels aren’t made to withstand full auto use and you will cook the barrel pretty fast.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >> >  Had I known this about 5-10 years > >> > ago I would have bought every full auto rifle I could > >> > find because an M16 that sold for $3000 in 1994 is > >> > selling for $16,000 today.  That’s a good ROI. > >> Is this still true (prebans staying high $$)?? > >No.  I was talking about full auto NFA registered machine > >guns, not pre-ban "assault rifles".  However, after the >AWB > >sunset there is no more "pre-ban" and the prices dropped. >I > >just picked up a "pre-ban" (meaning it has the bayo lug, > >collapsible stock and flash hider) Bushmaster AR15 brand >new > >for $799.  If the ban was still in effect and that had >been > >a pre-1994 gun it would have sold for well over $1K, but >now > >they’re all cheap.  I’m glad I didn’t buy any "pre-ban" > >rifles during the ban period.  The full auto machine guns > >were unaffected by the ban and are still outrageously > >priced. > I guess that if you can afford to feed a full-auto > you can afford the weapon… >This is true.  You can run through 1000 rounds pretty >quickly.  And barrels, if you like to rock and roll on full >auto, the M16 is *not* a "machine gun", it’s a full auto >rifle.  Rifle barrels aren’t made to withstand full auto use >and you will cook the barrel pretty fast.

True. A good mag stuffer is a must as well or you’ll wear out your thumbs pretty quickly too. I rented a Thompson once. That was some of the most fun I’ve ever had shooting. Burns up the ammo though. The weight of the thing really helps tame the recoil. Second most fun was a H&K MP5SD. The sound of the bullets smacking the backstop was louder than the report. That thing sucked up the rounds too. If I ever was to want an NFA piece I think that that would be it, although the craftsmanship on the old ’20s Thompsons is impressive. Those are getting *really* expensive too.  Tommy guns have the mojo, but I wouldn’t want to feed one on a regular basis. You definately need a fancy reloader to shoot full auto regularly. Claude :^) Claude

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>>> I guess that if you can afford to feed a full-auto >> you can afford the weapon… >This is true.  You can run through 1000 rounds pretty >quickly.  And barrels, if you like to rock and roll on full >auto, the M16 is *not* a "machine gun", it’s a full auto >rifle.  Rifle barrels aren’t made to withstand full auto use >and you will cook the barrel pretty fast. > True. A good mag stuffer is a must as well or you’ll > wear out your thumbs pretty quickly too.

Yes, it does.  Even just going to the range with a couple of semi auto pistols and a few hundred rounds will tire out the thumb. > I rented a Thompson once. That was some of the most > fun I’ve ever had shooting. Burns up the ammo though. > The weight of the thing really helps tame the recoil.

The Thompson has the cool factor for sure. > Second most fun was a H&K MP5SD. The sound of the bullets > smacking the backstop was louder than the report. That > thing sucked up the rounds too. If I ever was to want an > NFA piece I think that that would be it, although the > craftsmanship on the old ’20s Thompsons is impressive. > Those are getting *really* expensive too.  Tommy guns > have the mojo, but I wouldn’t want to feed one on a > regular basis. You definately need a fancy reloader > to shoot full auto regularly.

I think you can buy repro Thompsons, but they wouldn’t be full auto.  For a real full auto original Tommy gun you’d need a lot of money. The H&K MP5 is the choice for most SWAT teams around here because the 9mm is controllable and doesn’t have the penetration and long range of an M16 (which ain’t good in the city).  Check the prices on a full auto MP5 though, they’re expensive (over $15K). http://www.autoweapons.com/products/products.html

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>> I guess that if you can afford to feed a full-auto >>> you can afford the weapon… >>This is true.  You can run through 1000 rounds pretty >>quickly.  And barrels, if you like to rock and roll on full >>auto, the M16 is *not* a "machine gun", it’s a full auto >>rifle.  Rifle barrels aren’t made to withstand full auto use >>and you will cook the barrel pretty fast. > True. A good mag stuffer is a must as well or you’ll > wear out your thumbs pretty quickly too. >Yes, it does.  Even just going to the range with a couple of semi auto >pistols and a few hundred rounds will tire out the thumb.

That was one of the first things I learned with my first Ruger MK I .22. There some plastic mags for those that are easier on the fingers, but a loader is almost as necessary as good sights. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I rented a Thompson once. That was some of the most > fun I’ve ever had shooting. Burns up the ammo though. > The weight of the thing really helps tame the recoil. >The Thompson has the cool factor for sure. > Second most fun was a H&K MP5SD. The sound of the bullets > smacking the backstop was louder than the report. That > thing sucked up the rounds too. If I ever was to want an > NFA piece I think that that would be it, although the > craftsmanship on the old ’20s Thompsons is impressive. > Those are getting *really* expensive too.  Tommy guns > have the mojo, but I wouldn’t want to feed one on a > regular basis. You definately need a fancy reloader > to shoot full auto regularly. >I think you can buy repro Thompsons, but they wouldn’t be full auto.  For a >real full auto original Tommy gun you’d need a lot of money.

Yeah, the Colt 1928s from the ’20s are works of art and priced accordingly. The whole sets with the FBI cases and a drum or two are out of sight. Auto Ordnance has been in and out of business over the last couple of decades. I’ve seen the new ones at shows but never shot one. Sorta the same thing as a reissue classic Fender or Gibson. I’ve read that they try hard within the restraints of modern legalities to make nice guns. >The H&K MP5 is the choice for most SWAT teams around here because the 9mm is >controllable and doesn’t have the penetration and long range of an M16 >(which ain’t good in the city).  Check the prices on a full auto MP5 though, >they’re expensive (over $15K). >http://www.autoweapons.com/products/products.html

Yeah, my local SWAT uses then too. I got a full demo a couple of weeks ago when they visited a neighbor across the street. :^) MP5s all around. Fortunately they didn’t need to use them. I was eyeing a MP5SD on the wall at a local moneypit, used for a mere $8K. I have no desire to attempt to navigate the bureaucracy for a NFA gun, even though with my spotless record I probably could qualify. Not to mention the care and feeding. I’ve reloaded in the past, but small rounds like the 9 are too much of a PITA for me to mess with reloading, and I definately am not into buying thousands of rounds of reloads or new. Not unless I hit the Megabucks or win a lottery or something. Really nice guns though. The one I shot made me shoot way better than someone with my low amount of skill and practice has any right to expect. The SDs have *no* recoil or muzzle flip. Oh well, at least I live somewhere where I can go down the street and rent one if the urge arises. Claude

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>> True. A good mag stuffer is a must as well or you’ll >>> wear out your thumbs pretty quickly too. >>Yes, it does.  Even just going to the range with a couple of semi auto >>pistols and a few hundred rounds will tire out the thumb. > That was one of the first things I learned with my > first Ruger MK I .22. There some plastic mags for those > that are easier on the fingers, but a loader is almost > as necessary as good sights. >I love those Ruger Mark series pistols.  The first pistol I ever shot as a >kid was a Ruger Mk I .22, at the dump with my dad and uncle.  Those guns >(the new ones are great) are accurate and easy to shoot, and .22 is so cheap >you can shoot forever on $20.  It’s the best all around plinking pistol ever >made IMO.

I had a brain fart and let my MK I get away. Stupid. My last new pistol is a Walther P22 which is pretty nice, but I kinda wish I still had the Ruger. One reason is that there are only 10 round mags for the P22. It shoots nicely though. .22 is definately the way to go for plinking these days. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>> I rented a Thompson once. That was some of the most >>> fun I’ve ever had shooting. Burns up the ammo though. >>> The weight of the thing really helps tame the recoil. >>The Thompson has the cool factor for sure. >>> Second most fun was a H&K MP5SD. The sound of the bullets >>> smacking the backstop was louder than the report. That >>> thing sucked up the rounds too. If I ever was to want an >>> NFA piece I think that that would be it, although the >>> craftsmanship on the old ’20s Thompsons is impressive. >>> Those are getting *really* expensive too.  Tommy guns >>> have the mojo, but I wouldn’t want to feed one on a >>> regular basis. You definately need a fancy reloader >>> to shoot full auto regularly. >>I think you can buy repro Thompsons, but they wouldn’t be full auto.  For >>a >>real full auto original Tommy gun you’d need a lot of money. > Yeah, the Colt 1928s from the ’20s are works of art and priced > accordingly. > The whole sets with the FBI cases and a drum or two are out of sight. >They’re collector pieces, not shooters.  Much like 50’s Fenders and Gibsons. >Which is cool, I just can’t afford to collect either.

Yeah. I can remember lusting for a Colt M1928 when they were still $2/3K. Now the nice ones with accessories are way out of my price range, so to speak. Those all have cool stories attached too. > Auto Ordnance has been in and out of business over the last couple > of decades. I’ve seen the new ones at shows but never shot one. > Sorta the same thing as a reissue classic Fender or Gibson. I’ve > read that they try hard within the restraints of modern legalities > to make nice guns. >Yeah, I think the new ones are nice guns, well made.  If you had a den that >you wanted to hang a gun in what could be cooler than a Thompson?

Not too many guns. I saw an old Brit .600 Nitro Express at a show recently that was amazing. Beautiful engraving, and no doubt a hundred stories, but that’s a different thing all together. I’d like to pull the trigger on one of those maybe once… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>The H&K MP5 is the choice for most SWAT teams around here because the 9mm >>is >>controllable and doesn’t have the penetration and long range of an M16 >>(which ain’t good in the city).  Check the prices on a full auto MP5 >>though, >>they’re expensive (over $15K). >>http://www.autoweapons.com/products/products.html > Yeah, my local SWAT uses then too. I got a full demo a couple of > weeks ago when they visited a neighbor across the street. :^) > MP5s all around. Fortunately they didn’t need to use them. >Neighbor barricaded himself in the house?  Those are always fun for the >neighbors to watch, as long as they don’t evacuate you.  You weren’t >throwing black cats out the upstairs window hoping for some MP5 action were >you?

No cats. I heard the flashbangs go off and hunkered down for a few minutes until I was sure there wouldn’t be any gunfire. Wasn’t a huge surprise other than the when. Cars with 10KW subwoofers pulling up at all hours, day or night, someone runs into the house, stays 3 minutes, leaves, another carload stops by, 1 person goes in for a few minutes… On and on. I’m glad that they got the right place… It was kind of interesting to watch. I wouldn’t want to be part of it though. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I was eyeing a MP5SD on the wall at a local moneypit, used for a mere $8K. > I have no desire to attempt to navigate the bureaucracy for a NFA gun, > even though with my spotless record I probably could qualify. Not to > mention > the care and feeding. I’ve reloaded in the past, but small rounds like > the 9 are too much of a PITA for me to mess with reloading, and I > definately > am not into buying thousands of rounds of reloads or new. Not unless I > hit the Megabucks or win a lottery or something. Really nice guns though. > The one I shot made me shoot way better than someone with my low amount > of skill and practice has any right to expect. The SDs have *no* recoil > or muzzle flip. >The 147gr 9mm round was developed for subsonic applications like the MP5. >Some police departments have adopted it as a handgun round and they wonder >why it doesn’t expand, but in a subgun it’s perfect.  No muzzle flip, quiet >(even unsuppressed) and effective in the longer barrel of a subgun. >Video of the MP5SD in actions http://www.hkpro.com/video/MP5SD.mov

Nifty little gun. I still wont go thru the hassle and spend that much money for something that for me is basically a toy. I’d rather have a boat or something. > Oh well, at least I live somewhere where I can go down the street > and rent one if the urge arises. >That’s cool.  We have 2 local indoor ranges with huge assortments of >firearms to rent (over a hundred rental guns at each place).  I’ve shot some >things that I wouldn’t buy but it’s fun to shoot them or try them out if I’m >considering buying one.  If you are a cop it’s definitely easier to get the >chief LEO signature required to own a full auto weapon, and if you can >finagle a way into getting the department into letting you qualify with the >weapon then you’ll get to"train" with it regularly, all ammo at the >taxpayers’ expense.  That’s the only way to own a full auto without going >broke.

Yeah. Unfortunately I’m too old to start a new career in Law Enforcement. It’s not that difficult to get the signoff here if one’s record is clean, but I just don’t want to do it for something that is that expensive to feed. I may do it for for one of these. http://www.gem-tech.com/vortex-2.html It wouldn’t make me use ammo excessively and I could hunt rats in my yard… :^) Claude

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